A concerned parent has just come to our door...

Of course it is awful for a childminder if they are wrongly accused of something and it damages their business, but thebody, what do you suggest parents do? Put the childminder's livelihood over their gut feeling about their child's happiness/safety? No parent could do that.

My childminder is great, but if anything happened that made me doubt her or lose trust in her, or if I suspected my ds wasn't happy or safe in her care, I would move him without a second thought. It might be that she'd done nothing wrong and I was being totally unfair to her, but I would never leave my child with anyone I didn't trust.

thebody what other people do for a living is irrelevant here.

The reality is that when you work in a customer based environment, if the customer is dissatisfied with the service you provide then they have the right to withdraw their custom as they see fit. That is life.

And I realize that it is a little simplistic to refer to the children you look after as customers, but ultimately that's what they are - or their parents are at least. And the fact that these are children makes it all the more important that everything you do is done exactly right - you only have to look at how people judge other peoples' parenting, it's all the worse when it's not even the parent doing the wrong thing but the person who is being paid to look after the child.

It is unreasonable to expect people not to talk about it if a childminder (or a parent for that matter, but we're talking about childminders here) consistently left a young toddler in a buggy to cry. Even if they were to inform ofsted and an official investigation were to be launched, if people witness that kind of treatment of a child you can't expect they not talk about it. After all what happens if the ofsted investigation proves there is no wrongdoing - just because ofsted said it didn't happen doesn't mean that it didn't, especially if there are witnesses.

Talking about these things does not mean one is "dodgy" in fact I think that not talking about it is indicative of a bit of covering up going on there - no?

All the childminders I mentioned above have good and outstanding ofsteds. They all do the required things with the children they mind, the activities/crafts/baking/fill in the mountains of paperwork that are apparently required. I certainly don't believe that any of them are child abusers or guilty of child neglect, those are serious allegations and I certainly wouldn't be looking to throw those at anyone. But if I were a parent sending my child to a cm I certainly wouldn't expect that child to be left to cry for extended periods of time or to be left out of sight in a car while the cm collected other mindees. And unfortunately there's no real way of knowing that these things happen unless you are told by someone that they do. And if you are told that these things happen then you have to act first and ask questions later, because this is a child we're talking about.

ALL CMs are self-employed though, and that's the crux of the matter. Reputation is everything and there is bugger all you can do about it. I imagine it is like walking on eggshells keeping parents happy, but that's pretty much par for the course in any client/service provider role.

I am flummoxed however at posters automatically jumping to the defence of the accused CM. The OP has said in her threads that the following happened:-

1. the other childs' mum claims to have witnessed the neglect and comforted the child
2. The other mum's CM also backed up the neglect concerns but has since backtracked a bit, and didn't go immediately to ofsted
3. They all seem to live in a small villagey place, presumably where everyone knows everyone elses' business.
4. It's been implied that other CMs in the area are a bit scared of this CM
5. The accused CM has already gone and confronted the other parents' CM and reported back that the other parents CM is shifty and denying everything.

So it seems to me there were only ever three possible scenarios

1. What was witnessed was indeed seen by the mum but was a complete misrepresentation of the situation which was in fact entirely innocent (eg child was sleeping but woke up before CM spotted him, or had been placed out at request of nursery leader for making noise or something).
2. Nothing in fact was witnessed and the Mum and the Dad and the CM are making it all up to 'get' at the CM and damage her reputation
3. What was witnessed was neglect, and the parents felt the mum ought to know about it. The CM, being a bit wary of the other CM doesn't want to get involved because she's a bit scared.

In completely denying it, the CM has effectively rules out 1, so parents need to decide whether 2 or 3 is most likely. I'm not sure many mums would be plumping for option 2 as being the explanation to trust.

Saying that, if my nanny were accused of something like this I would know without a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't true and I'd be tracking down the accusers on my nanny's behalf and defending her to them. The fact that the OP didn't do that, but is tied up in knots about it all suggests that she herself has doubts over the CM.

Maisie, I would at least have a good sit down talk with the person that I had created a trusting working relationship over the last 9 months, who has been described as caring and gentle, and I would like think that I would listen to her point of view as much as a COMPLETE STRANGER.

I have just started minding a baby and over the very short period of 6-8 weeks already created a very strong bond with baby and parents and I would hope that after consistently showing parents photos's, diaries, learning journeys, inviting them to come and discuss anything with me, at any convenient time (development, change of hours, even just to lend an ear to a new mum or dad) would be more than gutted if they took the word of a person they don't know, who hasn't even got the courage to explain it herself over me.

Oh come off it thebody - you still haven't said what you would do in this case. Would you honestly keep your child there pending the investigation - which is not going to happen in the next couple of days, is it? I wouldn't - I'd err on the side of caution to protect the child, NOT the livelihood and income of a CM - which is what you seem to be more concerned about.

Paula hear hear hear what a fantastic post.

Maisy of course this needs investigating, noone says it shouldnt.

my point is that post investigation and a maybe finding nothing wrong many posters are still saying no smoke without fire so remove your child, this is so terribly unfair...

i ask if you work because I think its interesting to see if any job you, (or those on here so quick to condemn the cm,) have you would be effectivly sacked, smeared as a child abuser and villified without any evidence or indeed even when Ofsted find no case to answer.

some posters have said that Ofsted dont get the truth anyway..surely you can see that would be unfair, unethical and could potentially destroy another persons life... really cant you see this.

that is the concequence of your 'erring on the side of caution' destruction of a livlihood and reputation for your 'gut feeling'

please never serve on a jury will you, god help all of us working alone with children..

I don't think anyone has condemned on the basis of gossip - mostly it's been advice to err on the side of caution, which seems perfectly sensible.

You still haven't really answered my question - what do you suggest the OP does now? Report to Ofsted, of course - but if you had been made aware of allegations of this nature when your children were in childcare as young non-verbal children, would you have carried on sending them to their childminder or nursery until Ofsted completed their investigations or would you have removed them, at least temporarily.

I work, yes. I juggle 3 part time jobs so effectively work full time which involves working weekends, evenings and during the day. I have 3 children, aged 14, 12 and 4. Why?

"People do it because they feel they have no other choice, not because they want to do it"

this is why I now feel the need to lie about what I do for work. I have spent almost 20 years working as a childcare professional including working as a nanny, a doula and a maternity nurse. My children are all in full time school (and have been for years) and my husband could easily look after our children before and after school if I wanted to do a different role.

I am a childminder because I am bloody good at what I do and enjoy nurturing and teaching the next generation to be well rounded individuals.

Why do people assume that childminders couldn't do anything else? Why do people assume that since childminders work behind closed doors, they are neglecting / abusing the children in their care?

I am so glad that I have lovely parents that I work alongside that are friendly and open with me and fully respect the role I play in their childrens' lives.

Unless an official complaint has been made and/or the children are very reluctant to go to the childminder, i would put it down the hearsay and gossiping of the worst type.

Wannabe what a stupid sweeping a lazy generalisation..

i am a mum of 4 dcs, youngest 12. I work full time running my childminding business and DONT do it for pin money I pay our mortgage and many many cms do this as well, its a business career choice for me not a 'job as the kids are at home' and lots of cms are like this, trust me the level of paperwork and responsibility that come with running your own business in child care kinda stops the sahm just doing it for pin money anymore.

by the way what was your job you didnt say?? interesting?? do you have one??

Maisy its so tireing when people comment on the threads before reading them properly.

I have repeatedly said of course the poster had to investigate if I was the cm involved I would have contacted Ofsted myself, most cms would anyway to allow proper investigation.

To the couple who made the allegation, first of all the woman didnt even want to tell the poster her name so thats a bit strange dont you think... their cm has since distanced herself from these allegations. wonder why?

I am not saying allegations shouldnt be investigated far from it, we are all mothers hers arnt we??

BUT my point was the shocking number of posters on here who have condemned the cm on gossip and heresay, totally happy to blast her career, business and reputation and label her as a child abuser and then have the bloody cheek to say that well even if Ofsted dont find anything there is no smoke without fire.

Maisy is that how you would like to be treated at work??? is that fair do you think,, do you work??

Thebody - I'm not really sure what you are saying here. The OP has been alerted to some pretty serious stuff by people who claim to have witnessed some appalling behaviour by her childminder, actually went to the bother of going round to her house to tell her, were prepared to leave their names and put in a formal complaint to Ofsted.

What do you honestly expect the OP to do here? Leave her child with the CM until Ofsted finally get round to investigating? Ignore the accusations completely?

the problem with childminding is that it IMO is seen very much as a job for parents of school-age children to do that ties in with their own dc. How often do you see threads on here from women looking for jobs and the first suggestion is "have you considered childminding?"

People do it because they feel they have no other choice, not because they want to do it, and as such there are probably an awful lot of people childminding who don't actually want to be childminding, and as such, aren't going to be the best at it.

There are a lot of people doing many jobs they don't really want to be doing, customer service/office jobs etc, the difference is that being a cm is very much a job where you're in the public eye and where people will notice more what you're doing. So if you're leaving kids in the car/unattended then being talked about by the neighbourhood is no more than you deserve quite frankly.

rewdflow and wannabe, do you work in the public sector??? please tell us all if you could loose your jobs and livlihood on gossip and hearsay or have you both got lots of lovely employment rights, guessing yes or otherwise sahms..

oh and wannabe, never ever seen this behaviour in a parent or cm at my school or nursery, we would all pile in and interfere, you must mix with some very dodgy and unpleasent people.

the difference though between jobs such as teaching and childminding is that on the whole teachers/police officers/nurses etc have a hierarchy they report to, and generally they don't work entirely alone, which makes the escallation of complaints easier. That doesn't mean that there aren't bad people in every profession - of course there are. But professions where someone is working alone are a lot harder to regulate because it is generally a case of one person's word against another.

It is naive to expect that people wishing to complain would go straight to ofsted rather than to the parent whose child is affected. Because most people can relate to the fact that as parents, they would want to know if their child was being compromised, plus it's not rocket science to know that ofsted are ineffective.

WannaBe, I could tell you tales of teachers, nannies, Children's Centre staff, holiday clubs and, yes, nurseries that would put their professions in a negative light. What's the point? It's no reason to try and influence parents to use one form of care instead of another and I wish you'd stop doing it.

This incident sounds suspiciously to me like a malicious complaint craftily made to a parent rather than OFSTED.
If a complaint was made to OFSTED, they'd want some evidence and they might turn up a motive behind the complaint. Much easier to sow the seeds of doubt and ruin the childminder's reputation with gossip - just look how anonymous parents on a messageboard are reacting!

Agree it is pointless to report to Ofsted. What can they do? Talk to people and get the same info that you have now. And do what with that info? Guess at who is telling the truth?
With their resources which for some reason people seem to think are endless, an"investigation" just wouldn't happen.
Sorry , but it is down to you to decide, as others have said it is down to gut feeling with these things.

we're not talking about paedophiles here though are we? and there were two cases in ... how many thousands of nurseries up and down the country...

It is a fact that a childminder is generally in sole charge of her mindees and as such you have no idea what goes on there - esp when the children are still non verbal.

I have seen childminders who:

leave their mindees in the buggy constantly to scream and then complain that they are screaming; leave mindees in a car (out of sight) while dropping other mindees at nursery). Leave mindee baby asleep in the car outside a house while she went to visit a friend (car was not within sight of the window). Leave mindees in buggy for extended periods while waiting for others to finish after school activities, while sitting chatting to grown-ups and paying no attention to mindees in fact insisting they not chatter/make too much noise if they did...

And these are all different childminders. And yet the parents would never have an inkling...

And these are things that ofsted could never prove or disprove so calling them would have no impact at all.

Once children become more verbal it's different because they can express their unhappyness. but with pre-verbal babies and toddlers you do have to go with your gut feeling as there's nothing else to go on.

You can only go with your gut instinct with childcare, and once trust has gone it's gone - even if that is unfair on an innocent childminder. And yes thebody, if I thought my child cried a lot at childcare I would move them.

I don't think that you will ever know-it is only one word against another and I don't see how Ofsted can get past that.

I am so sorry to hear that you are not happy with what you have heard i wouldnt be either,i am a registered cm and am shocked to hear the way your child has been treated if she/he is registered speak of your concerns to ofsted that is what they are there for and ask your local council for advise if you feel she is to unapproachable and above all put your childs needs first.

I have reported a nursery before where i know they was not not nice to the children and ofsted did not prove anything so nothing was done. So not much faith in ofsted no.

There are some brilliant childminders and nannies out there and there are some awful ones too.

Go with your instinct but do not take any chances your children are too precious.

as a cm I actually feel physically sick at the volly of abuse directed at this cm who has been condemmned without a shred of evidence, indeed one of her original accusors has back tracked..

I am sharing this post with my dh, he doesnt usually get involved but actually says now he doesnt think cming is worth this to us as a couple.

I feel we share our lives with our own dcs but also 7 magical, special little visitors who spend a lot of their little lives in our family and are cared for and loved while they are here, same discipline, same treats, confidence boosts and care as our own dcs had and have. My older kids act like big brothers to them and the kids adore them.

Today i am planning Christmas activities including a hunt for santas boots(my oldest dss boots) with clues, cards and presents and photos of the children made into baubles for the parents...

and some posters say.'gut feeling she is a bad cm so get rid'...really really sad and unfair..

Redglow so even if she is found innocent by Ofsted you would say no smoke without fire, how lovely.

I agree with wannabe how can ofsted prove anything ? The childminder will be on her guard now.

just read your insulting post Wannabbe, nursery, little teds maybe,
or the one in Birmingham with the male paedophile.. dont be so bloody silly. there are good and bad cms, nurserys, doctors, police etc etc etc... and good and bad parents.

how dare you condem this cm or any cm on 'my gut feeling' can I ask what is your job? would you like to get the sack on someones 'gut 'dislike or mistrust of you.

if you had bothered to read the original post she described her cm as 'gentle and caring'

you are clearly the idle gossip type who causes this sort of problem..

How awful for you

It does just come down to her word against theirs, but I think I'd move my child given the circumstances. It's a horrible situation all round, both for you and the CM, but ultimately it's the child who is the most important person here, and whilst there is a shred of doubt I'd err on the side of caution.

op why dont you chap on the childmindersneighbours doors and ask if they see a baby left out to cry?

I have a childminder who lives near me and I regularly see her shouting and hauling kids up the road when its plain they are just tired from walking, I asked her about it once and she just rolled her eyes at me

some childminders are fab, but if I had any doubts I'd pull my kids out of the one you use