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Original poster

how do we handle this? Potential nanny dishonesty

87 replies

HalfPastSeven · 16/07/2011 15:54

Our nanny has been with us for years. She is great with the children and generally lovely. However, it looks like she may have been using "expenses" money for herself. Because she has been with us so long, we stopped checking receipts etc ages ago.

She has a card for one of our bank accounts which does not have loads of money in it, but has more than she needs for expenses (some other bills get paid out of that account). She is supposed to use that for expenses (e.g. when she buys food or takes the DC for trips etc)

Looking at the last couple of bank statements, it looks like she has been spending loads and I just can't understand what it is going on.

Obviously if she has been dishonest we wil have to let her go instantly and wont be abel to give her a reference. I feel quite sick about the whole thing.

What do you think is the best way to handle this - I dont want to accuse her of theft straight out just in case it is genuine expenses (although I find it hard to see that it could be) or if there has been a fraud on the account (although it is mainly local cash withdrawals ).

I do not use the account except for emergencies and nanny has DH's card.

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UpsyDozy · 22/07/2011 17:16

Sorry OP! Just got back from being away. My friend essentially spent a couple of hours and put everything onto a spreadsheet. Moneys out, agreed expenditures, time frames, everything. Turned out the nanny had got away with almost £1000 over 6 months.

Once they had all the evidence on paper it was hard for the nanny to justify it or come up with any decent explanations. Eventually she tearfully admitted to it and offered to pay it back. Her parents then bailed her out for half of it and then she disappeared out of the country without paying back the rest.

It was really sad as she'd been great with their little girl but sometimes things like this are just too much temptation for people.

EssentialFattyAcid · 22/07/2011 10:00

Agree with Patience - the longer you leave this up in the air without trying to get to grips with the facts the longer EVERYONE involved will feel uncomfortable. I think you have a duty to be direct with your nanny asap.

HavePatience · 20/07/2011 21:26

I feel a bit sorry for your nanny Sad
Maybe she expected you to say something because she knows how expensive things are getting. Maybe she was relieved to have the card taken off her because she didn't want the responsibility of paying cleaner and camps and you not remembering when you did/didn't ask her to. Maybe it is all innocent.
You can't just "decide how you feel about her" until you've outright asked her how the money was spent. You have not done that. You aren't being fair. At all.

harrietthespook · 20/07/2011 15:35

OP: Look, I can see why your DH handled it the way he did. I am sympathetic. There is a good argument against going in all guns blazing so to speak for the first chat.

I suspect you already know that you have to go back to her and clear things up, certainly if you're planning to dismiss her. Because of the way it sounds like the account was structured I think it would need to be some sort of confession of wrongdoing from her 'for evidence' if from your conversation you think there is no other explanation but stealing. I would be speaking to someone who know about employment law about next steps if she doesn't do this though.

Where the heck is Mr Anchovy anyway FFS?

chandellina · 20/07/2011 14:56

i would support your DH's approach, it sounds very sensible to me and in everyone's interests. I don't know what you achieve by sacking her, except righting the betrayal you feel. It seems there's a strong case she abused the card but it's not crystal clear she was willfully stealing.
that said, i'm pretty sure my nanny's contract says we can sack her immediately if she steals. (worded more politely)
i am continually annoyed by our nanny taking our entire weekly kitty and pocketing it. (no receipts, no plausible explanations). i imagine she justifies it by paying her petrol out of it and picking up the odd pint of milk for us. so far we've decided not to say anything.

GilbonzoTheSecretPsychoDuck · 20/07/2011 07:38

I would ask her directly. For all you know, she could be under enormous pressure from elsewhere and be needing you to take charge and ask her outright. On the other hand, if she can't give you a direct reason for the use of the money then she needs to be gone because whether she's acting of her own volition or being forced into it, it could escalate and you don't know what other things in the home you could be putting at risk.

My gut reaction with a long-term nanny would be to help her though. You need to find out for certain that she took the money and why

EssentialFattyAcid · 20/07/2011 06:40

Waiting another couple of days to see how you feel is a bad plan as you need to act now. You and dh are not being good bosses because you Both
have a problem with direct communication! Just ask her how the money was spent.

BrandyAlexander · 20/07/2011 04:12

OP, in your situation, I would now check the wording of employment contract and move to written warning if you can do so. I would immediately cancel card even though you now have it, you have totally compromised it as a third party has the card details and cvc details. Next, I would reinstate a kitty/expense book/receipts system. Finally, I would have a plan B ready for back up cover if the combination of written warning and reinstatement of checks and balances might cause your nanny to look for another job. Good luck.

fraktious · 20/07/2011 01:55

You cannot just sack her. You can follow your disciplinary procedure or you can make her redundant, which means changing the job significantly enough that she won't want it when offered and paying her redundancy.

Disciplinary would be tricky IMO. What are your grounds? Suspicion of theft? Being irresponsible with your money despite you not giving strict guidelines and insisting on receipts? Plus it probably wouldn't go further than a warning.

Blondeshavemorefun · 20/07/2011 01:41

so over the past few weeks/months over £800 cash has been withdrawn and no real explanation

but from what you have said she has agreed she took the money out of the bank - ie so not fraud

what i dont get is why she doesnt use the card as a debit card and use it to pay for stuff

things do add up - i have a works credit card and i can fill up works car for £120 if car very thirsty and this will last 7/10days depending what they do at the weekend

food shopping adds up- trips to soft play areas - i spent £35 the other day in getting 2 dc in and a silly boxed sandwich lunch Hmm

maybe you need to get a card that you cant get cash out of and just use it as a debit card and you will see excalty where money get spent

AmberLeaf · 19/07/2011 23:52

I wanted a couple of days to see how I feel about her , but if I decide I can't take the DH approach I will get an updated statement and make her go through the last week in the way suggested.

Based on what though, assumptions?

Given the communication issues with 'confronting' her [which are all on you and your DHs part] I can see how this mess has happened.

I actually feel sorry for your nanny here, you really need to be straight with her and let her state her case [if there even is one]

If you sack her over this without any proof or proper further investigation she would quite possibly win if she went for unfair dismissal.

sassyminder · 19/07/2011 22:36

Not enough comunication going on OP
She is your employee and you should handle things in a professional manner from the start and always...I know some people feel embarassed talking about money, but if you employ someone who have access to your money than you should be very especific how and where it is spent.
I think also, if she was more experienced or 'clever' she would keep recepts or een a little notebook with all her expenses down - so in case she was innocent - she could protect herself in case of fraud or employer's bad memory (paid the cleaner once? twice?) or lack of organization...

Original poster
HalfPastSeven · 19/07/2011 20:42

You are all right of course. I think there is a difference in approach between DH and me. His approach, as reflected in how he spoke to the nanny, was to try to find any obvious answers but otherwise put her on notice that we are on to it (whatever it is), make sure it can't happen again but otherwise draw a line under it and essentially sweep it under the carpet. I understand that - it is very much his style anyway, and the nanny has in all other ways been fantastic.

I am not sure though that I can, or should, do that. I wanted a couple of days to see how I feel about her, but if I decide I can't take the DH approach I will get an updated statement and make her go through the last week in the way suggested.

Upsydozy, what did your friend do?

OP posts:
Dozer · 19/07/2011 19:14

Agree with upsydozy. Understand it's difficult, but think you have bottled it.

nbee84 · 19/07/2011 18:44

You mention that your dh may be able to juggle his hours and you may not need a nanny anymore - bear in mind that as she has been with you for a number of years she will be entitled to a redundancy payment from you, it may well leave quite a bitter taste in your mouth handing over a sizeable figure to her given what has been going on.

UpsyDozy · 19/07/2011 18:38

This exact same thing happened to a friend of mine. It turned out the nanny's boyfriend had pressured her for the PIN and was using the card for cash for himself.

I have to agree with the other posters that things seem to have been left very much up in the air which isn't fair on anybody. I would suggest another meeting, if you still want to ask about the funds then go through the statements, go through what you and she have recalled as being spent and then illustrate the shortfall.

You say she was 'apologetic' but didn't shed any light on the outstanding money, this would be ringing alarm bells with me. That's a LOT of money to just lose track of. Until you get this sorted out there's going to be no trust between anyone and I can't see how you can all work together unless you are more explicit and get it thrashed out.

Ungratefulchild · 19/07/2011 18:30

This woman has worked for you for 'years', she is great with your children. I understand how difficult the conversation will be but you really owe it to her to ask her outright what has happened to the money. You really cannot just sack her!!!

TheOriginalFAB · 19/07/2011 18:29

I understand the not being mentally ready as it must be very upsetting to think you would have to sack a nanny who had worked very hard for you and whom the children likes.

Laquitar · 19/07/2011 18:24

She didn't 'hint to pay you back' Shock

'prove' , 'dishonesty', 'confession' Confused

'He was not mentally ready for confession' !!!

EssentialFattyAcid · 19/07/2011 18:04

Seems like you have bottled out of trying to understand what has happened here. Why not ask her to provide an estimate of what she has paid for over the previous 2 week period.

That's not too far back to remember.
If she says cleaner £20, bus fares £20, shopping £50, unexplained £150 then I think you can push her a bit further about the £150 unexplained.

If you don't make a bit more effort to get to grips with this you are never going to feel very comfortable about employing your nanny imo.

RitaMorgan · 19/07/2011 17:45

You haven't even asked her if she spent the money, and what on? How can you do anything else until you actually know what has happened and why?

BecauseImWorthIt · 19/07/2011 17:42

How can you even think about sacking her if you can't prove anything? Confused You have no grounds for anything at the moment, not even a warning, IMO, as you have no system in place that you can prove that she has abused, nor can you prove that she has stolen any money.

Given that she is so good with your DC (and you profess to be so concerned about her DS and her financial situation) surely you should be giving her the benefit of the doubt?

But make sure you put a watertight system in place from now on and that you manage it properly.

Original poster
HalfPastSeven · 19/07/2011 17:37

Dont think we can do more to "sort" the past. DH showed her the statement and asked what the money had been spent on. She was vague and gave a few examples, most of which we had already identified, and the rest of which dont account for all of the shortfall. She cant remember precisely what cash she withdrew when and what precisely she spent it on. She does not have many receipts as we did not check them any more so she did not keep them. That is our mistake and there is nothing we can do about that for the past.

Hence we cannot prove dishonesy and she cannot prove she was not dishonest. But in my mind there is still a big shortfall. If she had confessed, we would have acted. But she did not confess (although was apologetic), and DH was not mentally ready to "force" a confession and the consequences of that, which is why he left it.

We do need to "sort" 2 things for the future:

  1. whether to keep her on. We cant sack for gross misconduct as cannot prove it but could give notice. I want to give it a few days to see how I feel about it.
  1. kitty arrangements going forward. DH did not ask her to be more direct in explaining how she thought things woudl work with no kitty, becuase he thought (if she was hinting that she would pay us back in this way) that to get her to spell this out explicitly would be akin to a confession (which he was not mentally ready for). But we will come up with something sensible and put it in place. Need to reflect on amount given schools hols about to start, so there will be more outings etc.
OP posts:
Laquitar · 19/07/2011 16:52

But you haven't really sort anything or even had a proper frank talk, have you? Confused

You keep assuming things. She didn't mention any 'repaying'. Why didn't your dh ask straitforward questions i.e. 'how the money were spent' and 'how can you work without kitty'. You have missed the cleaner so i am thinking that you might have missed other things to underestimate cost if you dont write down.

Original poster
HalfPastSeven · 19/07/2011 16:40

We are going to cancel the card anyway. When DH said we/she needed to cut back on expenses and showed her the statement, she did not deny it was her or look shocked by the number. It was not clear to DH whether her apology was an apology for having used our money for her own expenses or an apology for having spent a bit too recklessly on day to day stuff without keeping track.

In a week where there are, say, 2 withdrawals of a similar amount in the same area (all are from cash points she would have reason to pass), I dont think she would recall which particular day was her (particularly 5 or 6 weeks ago), so we would probably not be able to prove that a particular transaction is fraudulent.

Just to be sure, DH is thinking of leaving it for a few days before cancelling card and checking whether there are any withdrawals in that period, although that obviously means risking losing a bit more. Cant decide which is best.

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