Terms and conditions for self-employed nanny

i take your point about adding bits into a contract that suit her as a childminder would.

However, my childminding contract says that if I am available to work, I get paid but if I'm not available to work, I don't get paid.

Therefore my own holidays are not paid for by the families that use me but if they go away or their child is ill so they cannot attend my setting, I still get paid in fulll as I am available to work.

I think a lot of childminders operate the same way so why should a self employed nanny (who should be employed), get something different?

ditto risk with any job, years ago i started a job, 3weeks into it mb was made redundant :(

this nanny does want her cake and eat it - she wants perks from being se and employed

as Mr A said,sick pay is just that - not accompany dh to doctor/hospital pay

I don't get the thing you say about her looking after other children. Could you explain more about that? Is it happening at your home or elsewhere?

When starting any job, the job may not last long. It is always a risk. I did a nanny job a while back which lasted for a year. Looking back I'm pretty sure the parents knew it would just be for a year but they didn't tell me that when I applied.
Anyone can lose their job at anytime.

She wants to have her cake and eat it. I appreciate childcare may be thin on the ground but you have to look after yourself. As MrA says looking after children from other families alongside yours in your home is risky - what if there was an accident involving your house that nanny wasn't liable for? It wouldn't be coveted by her insurance and I doubt your home insurance woukd cover it.

Remove that and like whoever it was upthread I suspect you remove a big part of the justification for her being SE.

The very nature of being SE means she shouldn't get sick pay or holiday. If she's sick she doesn't work and doesn't get paid, if she wants holiday/time off for appointments she takes it and she doesn't get paid.

SE works on an ad hoc basis, even over a long period of time but the minute it starts becoming regular and there's a weekly expectation for an indefinite period that becomes employment. I would employ her on £9 gross (you will be covering her tax and NI) plus her mileage so she's effectively getting a small increase and if you can afford it go halves on her OFSTED registration which is £50 you'll recover with 1 month of vouchers.

Like blondes I don't see why anyone would be SE in a perm job.

In this climate all nannies take a risk when they take a new job that it may not last because nannies are dependant on their employers being in work. It's a fact of working for someone who works for someone else and not a large company directly. Even then you have no greater job stability...

You have had some good advice here. A couple of other points:

If you let her look after other people's children in your home on her terms this is a very unusual situation which leaves you potentially exposed to all sorts of problems, whatever happens you should stop this.

Sick leave is only available to an employee who is unable to work due to ill health or injury. Time off related to the sickness of children, spouses or other people is not sick leave. If you want to agree to give paid time off for this purpose in additional to annual leave, you could call it Additional Paid Leave or something similar.

It is common for people with nannies who need them less in school holidays to say that annual leave may only be taken during school holidays.

Every employee runs the risk of their job ceasing to exist because of a change in the economic circumstances of their employer. Unless you are reasonably certain your DH is going to lose his job (in which case it would be fair to employ on a temporary contract), there is nothing unfair in giving someone a job.

Some IR35 cases if anyone fancies a read. Some seem to deal with if someone is employed status or not.

FWIW when I was a self emplyed nanny, I also worked on occasion for 2 families at the same time.

The status officer at HMRC explicitly told me that even if I was looking after more than 1 families children if I worked for any duration I would then become an employee.

Have a look at my post from 2008, here

HTH

OP - in response to your post to ME, the fact that she is doing work ad hoc for other families when SHE chooses (which may also be when she is working for you) may be part of what qualifies her to be self-employed in the eyes of HMRC. It might be what they consider when deciding how much control she has over when and for how long, under what circumstances, etc she works for people. It's something to weigh up I guess- how much that would bother you - and whether perhaps the whole picture of what she is offering mean that some compromises makes sense. Maybe you should advertise for a term time only nanny and see what shakes out.

OP - in response to your post to ME, the fact that she is doing work ad hoc for other families when SHE chooses (which may also be when she is working for you) may be part of what qualifies her to be self-employed in the eyes of HMRC. It might be what they consider when deciding how much control she has over when and for how long, under what circumstances, etc she works for people. It's something to weigh up I guess- how much that would bother you - and whether perhaps the whole picture of what she is offering mean that some compromises makes sense. Maybe you should advertise for a term time only nanny and see what shakes out.

OP - in response to your post to ME, the fact that she is doing work ad hoc for other families when SHE chooses (which may also be when she is working for you) may be part of what qualifies her to be self-employed in the eyes of HMRC. It might be what they consider when deciding how much control she has over when and for how long, under what circumstances, etc she works for people. It's something to weigh up I guess- how much that would bother you - and whether perhaps the whole picture of what she is offering mean that some compromises makes sense. Maybe you should advertise for a term time only nanny and see what shakes out.

agree if you dont employ her that she wont get 5.6weeks holiday a year

she wants it both ways

surely 5.6 weeks annual leave is for an employed person working 52 weeks of the year?

If she isn't working the school holidays, her annual leave should be pro rata surely to reflect that?

is she employed (you choose her working hours) and pat her holiday / sick pay or is she self employed (like me) and chooses her hours of work but isn't entitled to sick pay or holiday pay?

Provided that you can get confirmation of her tax status, although it sounds like a lot of time off, it might still work out quite a lot cheaper per annum than a nanny you employed who would probably want 9 pds net per hour. I think it's not so easy to find a term time only nanny, but you might be lucky.

I would run the numbers on her costs vs a full time nanny on eight or nine pds net per hour and see how things shake out as part of my decision making process. Is this the only area where you feel like she's being a little demanding?

All of this is obviously contingent on getting some sort of letter from HMRC (wouldn't rely on a helpline)that she can be self employed to cover yourself. I would want them to be reiterating in the letter the job description you have agreed with her and stating outright that they confirm she is s/e under these terms.

So lets get back to what she is wanting:

5 weeks paid annual leave

Well, as an employee she would be entitled to a minimum of 5.6 weeks annual leave, which can include Bank Holidays. So I would suggest agreeing on the minimum... 5.6 weeks inclusive of bank holidays.

2 weeks paid sick leave
Nannies do not usually get any sick leave in the contract. It is Statutory Sick Pay only. This then leaves it up to the employer on each occasion to decide to pay the day, or not pay.

2 weeks paid sick leave is like adding 2 weeks leave to the holiday.

she is very likely to use as she likes to attend appointments with her husband who has a chronic health condition.

Does that fit well with what you are wanting? Is if convenient for her to take days off during term time?

Half pay as a retainer for all school holidays when she won't be needed.

As an employee having some kind of retainer for the school holidays would be nice. I've done jobs in the past where there was not a retainer and it does become an issue if temp jobs are thin on the ground.

However, would you not be wanting her to take holiday during school holiday periods?

Is she saying that the 5 weeks holiday she wants, plus the 2 weeks sick leave, would only be during term time?

If you are the employer then you can dictate when your employee takes holiday. So you could insist that holiday was only taken during school holiday periods. Then remaining weeks of the school holidays could be paid at a retainer rate.

Tbh I don't know why any nanny would want to be se in a perm job

You miss out on paid holidays/ sick pay etc

I still think you would be better off having a term time only nanny - possibly a nowc

Welcome for the advice - that's what we are here for :)

It was a HMRC self employed helpline - they said it was possible to be self employed as a nanny - not specifically that she was specifically self employed

Yes nannies can be se but only if they chose the hours/days and for short term placements etc.

I am se for my temp adhoc work tho recently some of my families have employed me and paid the higher tax

But I chose whether I want to work and parents have rang up and said they need childcare the following Friday for example and I would say no as wasn't free/didn't want to and there is nothing they can do iyswim

As a se nanny I can chose that , but your nanny wouldn't be able to decide not to go in one day - hence making her employed

I used to be a self employed nanny, the minute you start working with a family for any long term non ad hoc duration you are no longer self employed. If she works for the same families and has done for a while then you should all be employing her. When I was self employed I looked after 46 different children in one year.

NannyNick and Blondes are right I'm afraid OP and you will be the one fined for not going through the appropriate channels.