Am I being unreasonable with my childminder

ditto chipping - thats what my mb wanted - so yes we do lots of kiddi orientated activities :) but they also come to the shops/post office/dentist/vets

yy Chipping - I have declined a family whose ethos different enormously from mine (they wanted helicopter-style care, I specialise in hands-off Montessori-style care) and if the fit isn't right then it's just no good to the parent or the CM

ExcuseMoi - you are making the assumption that what you do is what all parents want. Some parents may want a child centric nanny - I wouldn't. I would want a nanny to do the things that I, as a Mum, would do. I wouldn't want my children thinking the entire world revolves around their every whim - I'd want them to have a similar day with a nanny as they have with me.

It's about finding the right Nanny/CM for you - not about there only being one way of doing things.

When I trained as a childminder a few years ago, it was made perfectly clear that we needed parents' permission for outings, including car journeys. The NCMA provides permission forms for this very reason.

Blonde - it may be true that legally cms can go where they want without asking the parents' permission, but it is not good practice. As for cms being just like mums - they are also supposed to be professionals who are part of early years' care and are expected to provide professional, child-centred care, not just fit the child in with their life. Besides, a sensible mum caught in this cm's situation would have avoided taking the children on a hazardous car journey, followed by a stressful and unpleasant shopping trip. As a mum in her position I would have sent my husband to cope with the shopping whilst I did things with the children. Why make them suffer too?

Mimosa - your childminder should have asked you to sign forms giving permission for outings. There are permission forms for everything and it can seem quite irritating, but it ensures both childminder and parent have an agreement and know where they stand. I think your cm had no business to take your children out in her car without gaining your permission first.

Childminders are a business, as excusemoi points out, and should behave as one. This childminder is entirely unprofessional, as far as I can see, and is just treating the job as a useful earner whilst she gets on with her day-to-day life.

Apart from the obvious problems you have stated, Mimosa, it is also clear that you and this cm have very different ideas about childcare (eg your attitudes to giving children chocolate). It would suit you better if you could find a cm who had a similar outlook to you. But I realise this is too difficult in your situation, and I'm glad that you have found a solution.

Lukymum - you are so right about there being some wonderful cms out there. My cm has a gift with children that I envy. Her first concern is always for the children and she would certainly never behave as mimosa's cm has done. My son absolutely adores her.

Mimosa - hope you can have a happy Christmas now you have made a decision. I think you have done the right thing.

You didn't think they would go out? what is your 3 y/o meant to do all day? I don't know about anyone else but there is only so many activites you can do in the house!! Things like toddler groups etc are all out of the house!!

The whole point of using a CM is so that it is a home from home environment. So you do all the things you would do if you were at home with the kids. So shopping (altho i don't think its app unless it is shopping for the kids, as i said we went shopping to get stuff to bake cakes), toddler groups, parks, library, soft play, school drop offs or just a walk to get out the house!!

So if u ever use another CM, then you can probably assume right now that they would take your kids out! But always best to ask!! lol

The whole point of having childcare is so you can go to work without leaving your kids home alone!

Going to the shops is fine, but not a big xmas shop, with one child left in the car.

I'm a nanny and don't behave as a mum would. I provide a child-centered day, which is surely my job!

If childminders (or anyone) wish to be treated as a business they should behave as a business. I don't think there are many other jobs where you can go and do your xmas shopping in the middle of work because 'you don't have time' to do it out of work.

but the whole point of having childcare using a nanny or cm is that they would behave as a mum would, so sometimes go to the shops/help with hanging out clothes etc

you cant compare it to a teachers job - wheres star? we need her output, she uses a cm and is a teacher

I don't think 'not having another time to do the shop' is justification for doing it in the middle of the working day! I'm suprised by the nannies and childminders who think it is. Would this be acceptable in any other job? If you found out your child's school teacher had gone out for 3hrs to do her shopping would you be ok with that? You can't have it both ways...'i'm a business, I shut at six no flexibility' and then 'oh, but I need some shopping I'll be going in the middle of the working day'!

If it's of some value to the children, or if the parent has been asked, is it ok as a one off, then that's different, but in this circumstance I'd be annoyed.

I make it very clear to parents before they sign their contracts that I will be taking their children out and about. I think it is the CM's responsibility to make sure their service is clear to parents.

I would never leave a minded child with anyone else, unless it was an emergency and their parents would be informed immediately.

I think you have made the right decision in this instance to reduce your hours.

Good luck and Merry Christmas.

ChippingIn Thu 23-Dec-10 09:50:27
Pippin - I hate all of this Ofsted crap. Northerner & her CM are both happy with their arrangement - they are her children, she doesn't need telling who she can and can't leave her own children with. There are less regulations about leaving a child at home alone than there are about who you can leave them with - it's bloody madness.

Using an Ofsted registered childminder should be a choice.

chippingIn - I have nothing against reciprocal childcare arrangements at all however I do believe that the person being PAID to do their job - ie look after the child should be doing it properly and within the legal remit. Its not 'ofsted crap' but its also a safeguarding issue. At least Ofsted reg'd minders are regulated - with unregulated care there is no checks or comeback. Not to mention that person is probably earning money and not declaring it.

I would NEVER leave minded children with someone else unless it was an emergency - to protect them and the child.

Mimosa
Good luck with the change in working hours. Sorry to hear your first experience with a childminder was a sour experience. Hopefully though if you did need one again in the future you wont be put off by this. There are amazing childminders out there.

Happymummyofone, I appreciate that childminders are not for everyone. However if you find the right one(s) you end up feeling more like family and the children are well cared for. And shopping trips, etc, can just add to the flavour of the day (as hard as it sounds to believe).

Seasons greetings all

I stand by what I said earlier however I also agree with the last 2 messages. As childminder's, we don't need to ask about everything we do as we are a service provider and not employed by one person. One family may insist their child never goes out whilst another family maybe insist they are always out. We can't please everyone so have to decide what service we want to provide and take it from there. I turn down families I feel wouldn't work for these sort of reasons. Before signing a contract, if this was important to you it should have been part of the questions you asked the childminder. Having said that......I'm surprised your childminder didn't get a permission form signed by you when you sign contracts (for outings and going out in the car0. This isn't a legal requirement but is something we should have regard for. But this bit of wording IS in the legal requirements so unless she carried out a full risk assessment before the shops trip, she is probably in breach of contract? You've decided to give notice anyway which sounds the best thing as I think yes, you probably don't like not having the control (understandable) but in case you find this wording useful, I thought I'd post it:

Outings (specific legal requirements):

Children must be kept safe whilst on outings

For each outing, providers must carry out a full risk assessment, which includes an assessment of required adult:child ratios. This assessment must take account of the nature of the outing, and consider whether it is appropriate to exceed the normal ratio required (as set out in this document), in accordance with providers' procedures for supervision of children on outings.
The assessment must be reviewed before embarking on each specific outing.

Looking at your last post, I think you are right. You are not happy with this childminder and you are not going to be happy with that type of care, as you don't have a high level of control.

Childminders provide a service, while they may try to work in partnership with parents, they juggle the requirements of all the parents involved. That can result in your children doing things which they wouldn't do with you.

The lack of childcare is one of the problems of living in a village. Choice is limited. I prefer village life (having spent most of my childhood in a city) but it does have some drawbacks.

Sounds like you are looking to change the work-life balance, for which your children will be grateful. Sometimes it takes an event to make you think about what it is you really want, what is really best for your family. Working 10-2 sounds ideal. Hope your work agrees to it.

to be fair, you prob left for work/did that road 7/8am just as i do going to work, and my journey was horrendous

fast forward 7hrs later and my road was a lot better iyswim

sorry i thought the adult you didnt know in the car was dh,not that there was a 3rd adult - so yes you need to get cm to clarify who they were

When we were setting up the contract - she didnt say she would be taking them out. I thought if she would take them somewhere - she would have ok'd it with me first.

again as i said before a cm is self employed and her own boss and can go where she wants iyswim WITHOUT checking with the parents first

surely you would reliese a cm would go out of the house/go places?

either way, im sorry your 1st go with a cm hasnt worked out, seems a shame that you will have to adjust your hours,but least you are lucky enough to be able to do that, rather than lose your job

and maybe another childcare option is available - maybe a nanny (woc would be cheaper) esp if you have been paying £90 a day for a cm or after school clubs etc

but trust has been broken so you need to give notice

I think you've made the right choice. I would have been lived on this incident alone without any others.

Its things like this that ruled CM's out of ever being a contender for childcare for me.

ikwym chipping - feel the same :( - but to them its a job paying shit nmw wages

mimosa - what bugs you more - the fact the cm went shopping or the fact she left your 3yr asleep in a car while shopping?

i really feel sorry for cm,they get the brunt/blame of everything and so many parents seem to be dissatisfied with their cm,while the cm is trying to please everyone

the job i do as a nanny is the same as in caring for a child while parents at work but so different in many aspects and there is no way i could every become a cm and get the grief most of you lot do :(

police and news say dont drive unless have to,and tbh most of have to drive whether to get to work/school/shops - far better to drive during the day rather then in the evening when temps drop and roads become sheer ice

Pippin - I hate all of this Ofsted crap. Northerner & her CM are both happy with their arrangement - they are her children, she doesn't need telling who she can and can't leave her own children with. There are less regulations about leaving a child at home alone than there are about who you can leave them with - it's bloody madness.

Using an Ofsted registered childminder should be a choice.

Unless I really had to I would have either done my shopping online or got hubby to do it. NO WAY would I take the children. Yes it is a learning activity when its quiet during the day for a few bits of shopping.

These days most supermarkets are open 24/7 so couldn't the cm go after work?

Am off to a playcentre to wear the little darlings out and feed them too!!

Happy Christmas to all cms and parents on here xx

Nice to hear a rational and reasonable voice Northerner.

However I must point out that a childminder CANNOT and SHOULD NOT leave children with anyone else unless its an emergency.
The only people they could leave them with is a registered assistant (who is designated on her certificate) who has gained their 12hr pedadtric first aid and/or another childminder.

A minded child should be within sight or sound at all times.

This 'rule' protects not just the child but the adult. Quite apart from safeguarding and first aid there is a matter of insurance as well.

Depending on who the other person in the car was, I wouldn't have a problem with this.
Like SunnyDelight, I chose a childminder because I didn't want the kids to be in an institution (nursery) from a very young age, I wanted them to be in a home environment.
They do the school run, shopping, toddler group...everything that I would do normally.
Occasionally, the childminders Mum or Husband will look after the kids if she has a doctors appointment or parents evening or something. They are both CRB checked for this purpose.
My 2 kids went into to town with her several times to do her Christmas shopping - she works 5 days a week and just like me doesn't want to go at the weekend when it is very busy.
I'm not worried about them being bored on odd occasions, but acutally they never are and love doing things with her.
If you have other issues, then that is different, but this particular one I don't see as a problem (so long as you can resolve who wasin the car with your child when they were asleep).
Sleeping in a car seat for 2 hours really isn't a problem for a 3 yr old either. If mine fall asleep in the car, I leave them there (in our driveway in view of the living room) until they wakeup.
Paying while a child is at school all day is another matter - I think normally you would have a before and after school contract, as you are not preventing the CM from loooking after a pre-school-age child. Paying while a younger child is at nursery is normal (we pay half) as the CM can't look after anyone else in this time, and it is your choice to send her there too.

I don't understand why taking a child shopping is such a BAD thing? I see why letting a 2 year old nap for long time is bad...and the stranger in the car...that's VERY bad.

But a trip to the shops? It's ok surely? DOes EVERY day with the minder have to be eductional?

I know you pay a minder...but if the child ws home with you...then she'd be going shopping a lot!

Well I'm obviously in the minority here but as someone who used CMs for years I really wouldn't have a problem with this - it's a once a year Christmas shop and the weather has been crap which makes things difficult for everyone. I chose a CM for a more "real life" experience and if that meant the kids were occasionally less than stimulated in a tick the box kind of way, well that's real life.

If you want to know that your children are in the same place at all times use a nursery - I feel really sorry for CMs who do a fantastic job for crap money and now have the threat of being "reported to Ofsted" looming over them all the time.

Blondes - my shopping had several 5 tlr bottles of water, 2 boxes of wine, soft drinks, cleaning stuff.... squash, potatoes - you name it, if it was heavy it was being delivered - and yes, sexist or not, I thought 'Oh God, it's a woman - a small built, older (as in older than me, not older)' and I felt so uncomfortable about it. I know she took the job on etc but in this climate, it's not necessarily what she is trained to do or wants to do is it. I mean, I don't care who delivers it if they want to do it, but I felt bad incase she took the job on because there wasn't anything else available....

I still feel bad - but you can't ask them for a young fit bloke to deliver it and my delivery notes state it's up a flight of stairs.

I think I almost killed her with kindness - but she didn't want a drink/biscuit/bit of fruit/loo... she needed to get on with the next delivery.

(I'm sure this will end up with me being pulled apart in the feminism section, but it's how I feel - call me old fashioned possum).

Chipping - never had a female driver - tbh need a strong man to carry all the bottles of wine milk, squash, fresh juice , fizzy water etc

Is that really sexist of me?

When they deliver to work driver knows pit house well and mb gets a lot delivered and normally mad woofa is being annoying - but delivery man always brings a bribe bone to give to him

Bribery works on dogs as well as family/friends