Why do we have kids if we can't look after them ourselves?

Good posts, boffinmum. I often wonder why it is thought that only the mother should have access to the children in these threads. Do grandparents, fathers and even the wider community have no role at all?

I work p/t, and I think it's good for the dc to see me going out to work. I'm proud of my career, and want them to absorb the message that women can do all sorts of things. It's not like other people "raise" them when I am at work- I raise them. Does the school then "raise" them when they go to school? Or do children only need "raising" until they are 5?

I hate this idea that working mum's don't "raise" their children- of course they do.

My grandmothers were SAHM and at least one of them was bored to death and became a bit difficult, tbh. She had worked for Allianz before marriage and was quite bright. She had a lot of single friends who were the first lady surgeons and so on, which helped a bit, but I think really if she could have carried on with a p/t job of some kind instead of being an affluent wifey, this would have been better for her and better for the family (even though they didn't need the money). But I think in those days it wasn't the done thing once you got married, in her circle anyway.

xposts

I asked my kids about us working, in a customer feedback kind of way. They looked a bit puzzled. I think they had assumed most mums and dads work and it is not a big deal, a bit like them going out to school or whatever. Their comments mainly hinged around the importance of one of us making it to assemblies and sports days, but apart from that, they were pretty content with the status quo. They had also worked out that things got tight financially during periods when I was between postdocs or whatever, and worked out that it was more comfortable all round if I was working. Now either they have got Stockholm syndrome big time, or us both working hasn't been a bad thing.

Another point. I think it's only very recent historically, the idea that a mum (or dad) sits at home with 1 or 2 children on their own. Previously extended families and more fluid communities meant that children roamed about and were cared for by different people at different times. The whole nuclear-family-stuck-in-a-house thing is possibly rather artificial biologically, and possibly not always the best way to do things, seeing as we are a species that is rather tribal in the main.

OP, I think that your idea of the traditional norm for motherhood is badly informed and based on prejudice more than evidence. I also think that the way you frame your views is overly aggressive. It's possible to disagree without starting a fight but your statements here seem deliberately aimed at doing the latter.

I'm very happy for people who want, and more crucially, can afford to do so, to be SAHMs. But it shows a real ignorance of social history and anthropology to suggest that those of us who go out to work are doing something radically different from previous generations.

Women from the working classes have always worked inside and outside the home, albeit in low-paid low-status professions (cleaning, mending, factory work etc..). Contrary to the rose-tinted views of middle-class 1950s relicts and vast swathes of the modern media who prefer to deal in cliches rather than facts, the majority of the population have not always been able to support a family on a single wage.

Historically, the extended rather than nuclear family was the norm and grandparents, aunts and sisters would pool and share childcare resources. Now that most of us live in ways and places that mean we don't have access to these support networks we have to recreate them as best we can using childminders, nannies and nurseries.

To hold the views you do, I also think that you must come from a very different family background to me. On my mother's side every female member of my family back to my great-grandmother has combined work and parenting, usually while living with several members of the extended family, including retired family members or shift workers (nurses, cleaners etc..) Several were single mothers, widows or divorcees. Despite this, I can't think of anyone in the past few generations on that side of the family who has been on drugs, in prison, failed to complete their education, experienced symptomatic depression, lived on benefits or any of the other "negative" outcomes that the media likes to link to working motherhood.

I'm going to be brave! I like OP. If I went back to work my wages would pay for the child care.
Oh and would find it hard to of found a job that would of been able to of given me so much time of work to look after ds2 who has spent alot of time in hospital. thankfully on the whole he is now ok, he will still need pacemaker checks and pacemaker being changed at some stage, he's also austic with speech problems so I do spend alot of time at theorpy.this hopefully will get better when he starts school full time.
Since I've had children I have done an on line teachers aid course and have a part time job in this line of work already set up for when ds2 goes to school.
I just strange like op that i've enjoyed the last 7 years at home being a mum

:( Tanith

Exactly.

Although the vast majority of the children I have cared for have wonderful parents, working or otherwise, I have seen:

A child with open bleeding sores from nappyrash (his mum hardly changed him over the weekends and admitted that she "kept forgetting").

A child who flinched whenever I or any other adult came near.

A child who ripped up her craftwork and paintings as soon as she'd completed them because "that's what mummy does".

A child who once shrieked at my own son that she was sick of him, she wished she'd never had him, he was going to Tanith's house and he was never bloody coming back.

A toddler who, when I went to settle him during his nap, huddled straight under the bed clothes and stopped crying immediately.

A toddler whose mother who used to tease her that she was leaving her behind because she was so horrible and taking one of the other children home - and laughed when the child cried. She would tell me it was a joke when I interferred.

Save your outrage for the parents of those children, OP, and know that bad and selfish parenting has NOTHING to do with the decision, or not, to work.

aww thats lovely wrinkly - i must rem that one [hgrin]

LOL Blondes, that reminds me of what an old charge told me one day "are your boobies so big because your heart is so full of love?"

Awwwww she made me cry :)

think some parents worry that their child will love their nanny/cm/nursery teacher more than they love them

this is so not true [hsad]

a child love never runs out - its like an elastic band and just stretches to allow more adults love in [hsmile]

quite right blondes. I am really touched that by coldly and unemotionally putting my little ones into childcare, I have extended the number of adults they know who really care about them. Yes of course there are problems fitting FT jobs in with family life, but hey, we all seem pretty fine actually! Everyone has to find what works for them.

wow - its amazing what happens on a friday night on mn - i must not have a life and go out to the pub [hgrin]

'wipes brow after all that reading - esp finn and his room' [hhhm][hsad]

i am a nanny and i am part of the family - i am a 3rd parent and will always be there for my 3 charges when their parents arent - they can come to me for love/cuddles/kisses as well as the fun playing as well as firm but fair discipline - i love my 3 dc with a passion and would do anything for them

many woman work very hard at their career and want to continue with their success once they are a parent

some woman love their dc with a passion but are not cut out to be a sahm

others HAVE to go back to work to afford their mortgage/bills/food etc and scrape together to pay the nursery/cm/nanny fees

NO ONE should make any parent feel guilty (as often they feel guilty enough theirselves for leaving their dc)

There will always be parents who work whether they have to or ant to is another matter, and shouldnt make any difference - just as well or i would be out of a job lol

i wouldnt say i do a better job then a mum or dad, but i am there to help and advise them (if they want it) as this is my career (been a nanny for almost 20yrs)

many of the problem they may sometimes have such as child not sleeping/eating/being potty trained etc - i can help them with,as i have had experience in those areas before - and all of my familys welcome my views and advice because they know i have have had years of experience (just like you would go to a mechanic for a car and lawyer for legal advice)

in the end no one batters an eye lid when the man rushes back to work 2 mins after he becomes a dad, but many fell (including the op) that the woman should be tied to the kitchen sink

EVERY mum needs to do what is best for her,some love being a sahm,others hate it and go to work, some want to be a sahm but have to work to pay the bills - so they find the best childcare they they can

in the end NO ONE should judge another parent for their decisions they make!!

Ignore the DM it's a pile of potential loo roll.

I'm all for parents doing what makes their family life work for them.

I did a placement years ago with a PI firm. It was incredible how many people thought they could sue someone for tripping over their own two feet. Then there were the cases that made me cry, mis managed labour and delivery and undiagnosed cancer etc

It must be generally interesting work though.

I'm not in family, I'm afraid. I have done a bit of family but now I do general litigation but mostly personal injury.

As far as the likes of the Daily Mail go I am basically scum.

LOL

I want to be a family solicitor and have a family life too. Instead of working 70+ hours a week raising other peoples albeit gorgeous babies...

Really? Be my guest. Can I be Kristen Stewart instead?

Georgimama I want to be you when I grow up :)

I agree with those who couldn't do childcare 24/7. It would drive me mad. I love spending time with my DC, but not all the time. A break (ie working) helps me regain my mental balance.I work hard but it's sitting down, thinking and using a computer so completely different. Plus I can have a nice cup of tea in peace. I know it sounds daft but that means a lot to someone who never gets to hand the DC over to granny etc.

Also, yes women have always worked, mothers have always worked and they did this by leaving their DC with other members of their community (extended family or neighbours etc.) Children traditionally aren't just brought up by their parents but by their society and community. A good nursery or childminder is a modern version of this but basically nothing new.

meant to be "able to" not "abletoo"

tothepoint88, I am a SAHM well was until last month as I now work the grandtotal of 6 1/2 hours a week outside. I am absolutely baffled that you would see woking mums as selfish.

Most working mums I know do so for financial reasons because set of wages is not enough, how is that selfish? they do it for their families!

The other ones, who have chosen to go back to work very soon because they love what they do definitely not love their children any less, they just found ways that allows them to have children and to also keep on doing something that keeps them sane and independant, how is that selfish?

"It's not a matter of wealth (childcare aint cheap!), it's about priorities."
Yes it is about priorities, you are right . I am going to go for the cliche of the century but 'a happy parent makes a happy child' really works in this situation. A friend of mine was so adament that she wanted to be a SAHM problem is after a while she got very very depressed, her DH was not cut out to be a SAHD she decides to go back to work and use childcare (friends and family helping arround) She is so much happier for it. The difference is stricking and her DCs are much happier too, not because they see less of mum but because when they see her she is happy, does not shout at them and actually has fun with them.

In an ideal situation I agree that Mum or Dad looking full time after the DCs is a great idea but real life is not necessarely ideal.

"So basically if a women wants children she has to marry someone rich, or chose not to work stay at home and claim benefits."

I desagree with op but I also desagre with this statment. I was able to be a SAHM for the last 11 years, DH definitely not rich and without getting benefits other than CB.
I do agree though that the only way to really not 'let down'our DCs would be to HE if we consider anyone outside Mum and Dad to be unfit to look after our children. I do not think I would be abletoo, not in the long run anyway.

I work FT. Ex-DH stays at home with DS (2). Yes, I think it is best for DS to have a parent at home at his age. We'll probably use some childcare when he is older. I don't think it makes me particularly judgey for thinking that, on the whole, young parents benefit from having one parent at home where possible - at least, no more judgey than all the PFBism around on MN.

It gets to be a pretty bland world where we all have to trot out the 'your child, your choice' mantra - there would be no debate left on MN.

And actually, I take DS for woodland forage walks, make my own apple sauce and work 40 hours a week as a solicitor. If we're in the mood for a contest.

The sewliberated lady doesn't bother me at all, I think it is all rather sweet and aspirational in the same way River Cottage/Nigella etc are aspirational. What you have to remember when you start to feel incredulous/inadequate about people like her is that being like that is her job.