Au Pair not keeping their own room clean

I agree with pts raised by Frakk. I personally think the 'business like' arrangements -provided this means the family is complying with a contract and adhering to the other requirements of UK employment law - are much better for the AP than a nebulous, fluid arrangement where they're supposed to be 'part of the family.' As I said before - what on earth does this mean in practice? This is no gaurantee that this kind of relationship won't be exploitative either. A family who wants the AP around all the time may also be expecting her to PITCH IN all the time - which is another word for WORK.

There obviously has to be some sort of cultural compoent - my reading of the legislation as to when employees who live in are not governed by minimum wage rules is that they aren't if they are sharing in family life. I suspect an AP who works 40-50 hours a week and NEVER or very infrequently does anything with the family would, if she took it to a tribunal, be found to actually be a nanny and the family falling afoul of the rules. I suspect that an arrangement where the AP works the part time hours that are usual for an AP for the going rate of 'pocket money', has meals with the family regularly, is paid for when she goes out with them and does go out with them from time to time, etc etc. would probably be found to comply with the legislation. This is just my supposition - don't know if anyone has tested it! Or knows more about the law in this area.

Anyone who has someone living under their roof should be willing to give that though. Personally I feel that the whole term au pair should just be abolished and one should refer to them as an unqualified live in nanny/childcarer.

The points you make about the employer having power apply to any live in employee, doubly so for their age and being in any foreign country. It's the lack of respect that so many so-called host families have which is detrimental and that lack of respect comes from 'but they're just an au pair' and 'I would expect my own child to do this'.

Who in their right mind wouldn't give an employee privacy, respect and honesty? To do otherwise, especially with someone living under your roof, is a recipe for disaster. In return the au pair owes the host family the same. Respect, in particular, is a two way street. People's ideas of privacy when living together are governed by their experience together - if an au pair spends their whole time in the living room then it's not giving the family privacy, they're acting as a full family member so you can't blame children for wanting to go into their room when they're 'off duty'. Things like that need to be laid out at the start.

The emotional/social/intellectual support I think depends on the family and that's where the mutual expectations come in. Openness for friendship and affection is where problems can start creeping in because it blurs the lines. IMO one always needs to be prepared to pull back from that affectionate relationship with an au pair and evaluate objectively. Clearly no-one wants to work with someone who treats you like a robot - no-one does - so employers need to think about their management style. Many of the threads on here about managing nannies apply to managing au pairs but people don't realise it...

I honestly wonder how many of these really unhappy au pairs had contracts (and understood what they were signing) and made any attempt to discuss what was happening with the family.

frakkinstein, let me put it this way. I've met way too many unhappy au pairs. Yes, I think there should be especially careful rules on employing student-age people because its so easy to have someone young and inexperienced who is overeager to please and doesn't recognise that they are being mistreated.

As a host family to an au pair you are their employer, their landlord, nutrition provider, calendar-setter, etc. etc. You are in a huge position of power relative to them, much more than any normal employer. Combine this with their age and you have a potentially dangerous combination.

I wonder what host families think they owe their au pairs. The obvious minimum is food, a room and some money. But I would say there should also be an obligation to give security, respect, privacy, honesty, respect for what they want out of the experience, honest support for their social and intellectual development, and openness for friendship / affection. Take these things away, based on au pair wages, and you're headed towards running a willing-labour sweatshop.

Just to pick up on something

'dangerously close to exploitation'

Are you implying that laws governing working conditions in the UK are exploitative?

This is why it's important to match up the expectations of the family with the expectations of an au pair...

Someone who wants a business like arrangement - room, board and pocket money in return for some childcare and cleaning, time to study English and have fun with their friends - is not going to fit well with a family who want their au pair to spend a lot of time with them, playing games, having dinner and going on trips out at the weekend. Those families post on here going 'why is our au pair ignoring us? she's never in!'.

Someone who wants to be part of a family isn't going to do well in a family who want the arrangement to be more business-like. That family would suit an independent au pair. They post on here saying 'my au pair is really clingy, this isn't what we specified - we wanted someone independent and outgoing!'

For those reasons guidelines like 'we prefer to have time as a couple in the evenings' are important because it doesn't raise the expectations.

If my DC went to be an au pair I would expect that family to give them all the legal protection required and uphold whatever end of the bargain they agreed to. If they said that they wanted to welcome the au pair into the bosom of their family and went back on that then I'd be pissed off but the majority of families who have the kind of business like arrangement just don't promise those things in the first place.
Both parties need to be upfront and select their match carefully.

The ones who exploit their au pairs are the ones without a contract, who say they will treat the au pair as a member of their family/give them that expectation and then don't. That's not fair to anyone. Sadly there are plenty of families like that who simply haven't looked into the realities of having an au pair or thought about the obligations. My view is that agencies are to blame a lot of the time as well because they don't seem to adequately prepare families, they don't provide accurate advice on contracts or working hours and they don't check up on the au pair afterwards to check that everything is okay.

There is no longer any obligation at all to 'be a host family' and treat the au pair like your son/daughter. There is, however, an obligation to be an employer. With that in mind it's much easier to have the professional relationship in place first because that is the base of the arrangement - you hired them, you pay them in return for work, you can fire them. Then if you're happy for them to be part of the family you can include them but that's for the family to decide and the prospective au pair to agree to or not.

Reading this thread as a newcomer I have to say the 'business-like' families do not come off sounding very fair. In fact it sounds dangerously close to exploitation. From what I understand au pairs have always been meant to be treated as part of the family. For some it seems like they are not really concerned if these young people are happy or having their (social/emotional/physical/spiritual/intellectual) needs fulfilled, only to make sure that they take up as little space as possible and do not involve any changes to their life (other than less housework and less childcare).

I wonder if their children grow up to want to work as an au pair themselves, how they would wish their host families would treat them.

"HarrietTheSpook": What does 'member of the family' entail in practice though?

Your conundrum about the room is a really difficult one. I don't think there's going to be any easy solution whatever kind of arrangement / contract you have.

One my AP's friends ended up having to share a room with non-English speaking grandma on an extended family visit over! She found it very embarassing...

My AP offered to share a room / the sofa when my family came to stay. They're perfectly happy on the sofabed so I didn't take her up on it.

Now that she's living down the road in a student flat, we've agreed to accommodate each other's "overspill" as and when either of us have too many guests at the weekend.

OP - just to mention that mould appearing in the bathroom isn't always a sign of poor hygiene - we have a great cleaner and I do our every other day, but it still comes back. Perhaps the bathroom isn't very well ventilated?

Duchesse
Not really because the DDs go to sleep much earlier than she does. Also she has things like homework for her English classes and practice she has to do for another activity that I wouldn't want to disrupt. Also, it would basically be compelling her to spend time with us in the evening - she would want to spend some of this time with us but possibly not all, and we would also be gauranteed not to get any of our own space either - unless we went out. It'll be tight but we will manage. If she took any request along those lines the wrong way we'd have a very long rest of the time to patch things up. Can you imagine her speaking to next year's AP: "It was all going well until the kids had to sleep in my room for eight nights."

I guess I mentioned it just to illustrate a point because while most APs would say: oh yes I want to be part of the family I suspect they would not want to give up their room to a family's house guest and some of the other less than glamorous things that go along with it.

Harriet could you ask your AP if she minded if your girls went in with her for a few days during the visit? It might be an easier way around it.

Hmm ... good point Harriet. I had just thought about being included on family outings and letting them help themselves to food and drink. That is an interesting conundrum and I think I would feel that I couldn't turf her out to share with your DD either. It is indeed an odd relationship

What does 'member of the family' entail in practice though?

For example, our AP has the largest bedroom in the house with her own en suite, couch, desk, coffee table, etc. We have friends, a family of five, coming to visit from S America in January. I feel it would be rude to ask the AP to share with one of the girls so they can use her room, although obviously it's going to be a squeeze for everyone else. And she will get to spend time with the family too, on an equal basis. If I were treating her as a 'member of the family' strictly speaking, or if she WERE a member of the family you can bet I would be asking her to bunk in with a DD.

The reality is they ARE long term house guests on one level and do get some special treatment, but they are also employees too. It's a weird relationship for sure.

Thanks Toga and Harriet - that's very interesting. I didn't realise that you could have a different kind of arrangement. When I listened to the programme, they were saying that the APs had the expectation that they were going to be members of the family and were shocked that they weren't treated like that but I guess their host families weren't very clear.

Togarama
I think you are completely right about getting the expectations right. We are probably closer to the 'businesslike' arrangement - it has to be in some sense because our AP works alongside a nanny (who obviously has a contract and specific responsibilities and needs someone to help her who is clear about her responsibilities.) Also we are very busy and just not around a lot - not because we're cutting her out deliberately and doing things w/o her but because of work, children's activities etc. So, we need someone who is a self-starter and able to fend for herself quite a bit of the time. I don't think some girls appreciate exactly that peoiple get APs BECAUSE they are busy and need help, even if they are well intentioned about including them/not deliberately NOT spending time with them.

We are very clear about these arrangements at the interview stage and in the invitation letter. So, I think as long as you are upfront and the situation when the AP arrives is as described, this reasonable and the girl needs to decide for herself if it's suitable.

HeadlessLadyBiscuit: Sorry, I used that phrase too casually. What I was trying to convey is that for some APs and families it does seem to be seen as more of a business arrangement with detailed contracts that reflect this (eg specifying that family won't go in AP's room without permission, that AP will clean x, y and z twice a week etc.).

If someone knowingly signs up for this kind of arrangement then it's not the same as someone who thinks they will be treated like a member of the family but then finds that their eating habits and personal space are being closely monitored.

Our AP came over to the uk to au pair at the same time as several of her friends. We've had all of them to stay at different times and they're lovely girls. Their AP experiences were radically different but the two who were happiest were ours (we believe her on the grounds that she's staying on for another year and encourages others to try APing...) and a girl who was in a v. businesslike arrangement as described above. The others had some real horror stories. The worst was where the family had lied in their online profile and the AP found herself faced with 4 children rather than 2, one of whom was autistic. They expected her to look after the kids, dogs, clean the house every day (and grandma's house at the weekend!). They lived in the middle of nowhere, gave 1 day off per week and paid the princely sum of £55pw. When she gave notice they kicked her out and she stayed with us for a few weeks.

The girl with the civil, negotiated businesslike placement just regarded it as work. She was treated respectfully and paid appropriately. It's not an approach I would choose but it did seem to work for all concerned in this instance.

Tbh the happy ones I know are the ones whose host families had thought it all through, employed the au pair properly with a contract and a set of expectations and set things out like 'in this house snacking between meals isn't encouraged, we provide 3 meals a day and you're welcome to have biscuits or a piece of fruit with your coffee and some chocolate in the evening but all the food is communal so please respect that'. If the rules are laid down (which is what the OP is trying to do) that's fine!

The exploitation problem has roots in the abolition of the genuine au pair scheme as far as most nationalities are concerned, meaning almost anyone with the right to work can do an au pair job but it's legal for them to look after children of any age for unlimited hours. It was just completely deregulated with no guidance on pay so people go by the old pocket money advice and the new working rules!

togarama - but that isn't the point of APs is it? They are supposed to be members of the family, not low-paid employees so not 'fair enough' for the OP or anyone else to treat them like that at all.

I heard a programme about a book on APs in the UK on the radio a couple of weeks ago and I have to say it made me ashamed to be British :(

"BlueGreen - you said you've worked as an AP for 'families' - I am genuinely curious why you did it more than once if it was so bad?"

I had to! I was on Aupair visa and coulnd't speak much English.

I will tell you the best! experience I had. I went to Germany for holiday and got sick and admitted to hospital. Called my host family to let them know that I'm in the hospital and doctors had asked me to stay to do some tests. Therefore, I wont be able to come on the days I suppost to. They said fine. And when I went back they were decoration my room so that their daughter can move to the room i was staying. They told me that they werent expecting me(probably, they thought 3 baskets of ironing, cleaning the whole house top to bottom every week and their 3 spoiled(2 were teenage)kids were enough for me to run away). Anyway, I asked them where am I going to stay? And all they said was " well we are decorating the room and dont have spare room, dont you have friends that you can stay with them until you find another family? Called a friend asked her help and she came and asked them "how would you feel if someone did this to your daugther?" They coulndt say a word!

IF I could speak the language abit better I would find other jobs like cleaning working in MC Donalds but I woulndt worked as an Aupair ever again! As I had had enough of the families who thought Aupairs are slave. That is why when people come on here and moan about how their Aupairs not cleaning their room or bathroom, how they are eating their precious! snacks, how she want a family time with her husband but the Aupair is always there!!! makes my blood boils!

And honesty saying I never ever heard from any Aupair that they were happy with their host families. And they worked alot more then 25 hours a week. Some of them even looked after 9-12 months old babies for full time for £70 or £80 a week.

So there you go.

If your bathroom is going mouldy it doesn't have sufficient ventilation. If your AP needs to open the window/leave the fan on, then you need to tell her that - she's not going to know otherwise.

I think it's stingy beyond words to expect your AP to pay for her own snacks - they are supposed to be a member of your family, not a low paid servant.

Hmm. I think that it depends on your mutual understanding of the au pair role. Is she an adult (temporary) member of the household or not? Do you see her solely as an employee? If you do, fair enough. But she may have a different understanding what it means to be an au pair.

We took on an AP to be genuinely part of the family and spent a lot of time making sure we got the right person.

Our AP is fab with DD and we are delighted that she wants to extend for another year and work for us while doing a diploma course here.

However, she is also a typical 21 year old and her room and bathroom were always a total mess. She also eats like a horse / teenager.

She recently moved into a student flat down the road (she's Finnish and gets a grant from her government even if studying abroad). In the event, it actually only took her a couple of afternoons to clean out her messy room so it can't have been as bad as it looked.... And I think the amount she eats is par for the course with a healthy young person, to be honest.

We made it a bit of a joke that we had acquired a teenage daughter at the same time as a baby. I treat her as I would a younger sibling or niece. She can help herself to whatever she wants, whenever she wants, from the kitchen but must tell me or leave the packet out when she finishes stuff so that I know to buy more.

DD loves her and I trust her with DD. I was willing to trade a bit of mess for a year for this.

obviously the ap should keep her room and bathroom clean and tidyish

snacks - i help myself at work, just as i do at home and would be very offended if i wasnt allowed too - obv you dont want ap to eat all the snacks - op says she is comfort eating - why? is she homesick/miserable in job etc-i would see if there is a deeper problem

obv as frakk said if dh ate a whole packet of jaffa cakes and didnt share,we would be having words

can i add that yesterday i found a glass in spare bedroom where friend had slept the other weekend and she took a glass of water up with her (to avoid the morning hangover ) and the water has spores growing on it

frak i didn't say that you do . Sorry if it seemed like i meant you.
My dh doesn't like sweets so they are all mine

Going for walks
Snaffling

Fat fingers, me

Just to clarify it's not that I monitor his food! It's more that it's really not very polite to open up and polish off a whole pack of Jaffa cakes! I'd want him to share or leave them open in the cupboard so I could have a few...

If a whole packet disappeared - and by disappeared I'm taking that to mean there one minute, completely gone the next - then I'd be pissed and tell him he wasn't being very nice.

OTOH if he polishes off an entire Camembert or a packet of salami I couldn't give a monkeys about it.

I think the OP is more making a point about the type and quantity of food that's going walks. The odd biscuit is fine, but snafong huge amounts of food isn't polite for anyone.

I agree about 'be more discrete in front of the children'.
If OP had said ie that the AP eats jaffa cakes when the children have tea i would say that she (the op) is right to be angry and i think most posters would say the same.

But OP didn't mention anything about the children. She said she provides 3 meals and expects her AP to buy her own snacks. Which i think is a bit mean as the pay for APs is tiny comparing to live out wages based on the assumption that food is provided.

Personally i would rather die than argue about a pack of jaffa cakes and i wouldn't dream of telling a grown up -including my dh- what he is allowed to eat or not. Monitoring another adult's food and counting his bites is never right in my book.