Childminder holiday fees

Sorry pipin if I seemed to imply that all childminders ripped people off. That is very far from what I believe.

Archstanton - I agree - childminding is poorly paid but we would loose custom hand over fist if we charged what we were 'worth' - iyswim.
I actually care passionately about the job i do and everything I do (work related) is centered around the children. All my training goes straight back into my practice. I DO try to be extremely supportive to my parents and in the main they (most) of them appreciate it.
It wasn't worth my while 'going out to work' and I have worked on and off with children since I was 16 and thought I'd give minding a shot. I discovered that I LOVED it - although its darned hard work. Over 9 years I have become extremely qualified and experienced, the longer I do it the more I like my job. the quality of minding (as in terms of my knowledge, provision, equipment, activities, multi agency working links) i offer is excellent - yet I still cannot charge anymore than my colleagues.
My youngest goes to an excellent first rate minder while I am at Uni - and I treasure her.

Skidooly - you have your opinion and obviously will not be convinced otherwise. Thats fine and i respect that, but please think before you make such sweeping statements such as 'ripping off' - as i believe its unnecessary and very offensive to the majority of excellent minders out there striving to a) make a living for their own families and b)provide excellent service to their families.
Of course, like any sector there wil be those who's business practices leave a bit to be desired - I don't deny but in the main many mindres provide quality and value for money

Although I do not subscribe to them, I believe the NCMA itself recommends that childminders charge 50% for their time off.

Unbundle fees all you want, but a lot of people will be put off using a childminder if they think they will have to pay for childcare when it is not available and they will have to make other arrangements.

If you are ok with losing custom to nurseries for that reason then that's your call. I wouldn't be.

I would not have signed a contract like that in the first place and would move in an instant if new terms like that were brought in. I would never pay a s/e person for their holidays or when they were not available to work.

There are perks to being s/e yet one of them is not paid training or holidays.

This is one of the reasons I would always choose a nursery if ever in that position.

Well my best friend is a self-employed management consultant. She has worked for the same company for 3yrs and she doesn't get paid holiday. Most of her contracts at at least a year yet holiday/sick pay is her responsibility. DH's good friend is a self-employed chartered accountant who continously has the same clients but they don't pay him holiday pay either.

I really think this very rarely happens, if at all. Unless you can explain to me what sort of self-employed people you are talking about as we happen to know quite a few. Another friend is an actuary who does freelance consultancy. He charges £1500 a day and his wife is very thorough at creaming off so much for holiday and sickness insurance.

It is not ripping off - it is trying to be entirely transparent with parents. I want my mindees parents to know exactly what they are paying for so I offer what is in effect an "open book" approach.

Nothing is included in my basic rate for minding (which is on the low side in my locality!). I then build up a total price based on the parent's requirements - do they want meals; do they want nappies provided, etc. etc. I also list how I charge for Bank Holidays so that contrary to building these things into the regular fee and them being hidden, there is complete visibility and transparency.

If I charged £5.50 per hour for a term-time only contract, inflated to cover the 12 or so weeks school holiday that I did not then appear to be charging for, do you think the parent would be happy being "in the dark" or would they sooner pay £4.10 per hour on a year round basis - I think the latter - I know I certainly would.

I believe that transparency should prevail - too many times there is this so-called "bundling" of fees to include everything. My sister's child goes to a minder who includes nappies and wipes in her fees but the minder uses Pampers and if the parent wants to provide their own because they prefer Huggies then guess what, there is no reduction! Charges should be unbundled so the parent can know what they are getting.

Additionally it is important to point out that many other self-employed people do receive holiday pay etc. So often, self-employed people are only thought of as having many different customers for short term jobs such as plumbers, electricians etc., but many self-employed people working on a retained basis for one "customer" or "client" continuously maybe for a number of years, do frequently receive the same benefits as traditional employees.

Thing is, Pippin, that's the problem with childminding. You're poorly paid and when coupled with your workload, it makes me wonder why anyone does it.

But of course, many women chose it because it's a opportunity to stay at home with their own children. Unfortunately, it's never going to be financially rewarding and trying to make it more so by expecting parents to pay you as they would an employee is going to get their back up.

I don't use a CM btw, this is just an impartial view.

Well I suppose that is your view skidoodly. I don't really see the need to be offensive and say that childminders 'rip people off' though.
I respect my colleagues right to run their businesses as they see fit. Of course if something is blatently wrong then yes I would speak up but its not against our professional bodies' advice (and that is legal advice too).
as for building these 'costs' into our fees - if we really added it all up (the extra time and bits and bobs that get snuck in here and there, attending the childs sports day at short notice, being a last minute taxi service, rushing to get the child a packed lunch because parent has forgotten its school trip today, the amazing amount of food the children seem to be able to consume at your house, replacing all the materials/equipment, time spent cleaning, the evening and weekend time spent at training and professional development, the time spent preparing activities, writing up planning etc, then factoring in our holidays and time off - and this is just a short list) then we might become an exclusive bunch only available to those who really can afford it.
As I said, personally I do not charge for my time off (asides from BH) but I bend over backwards to help parents out when i have time off to help them arrange suitable and acceptable childcare - again at no extra cost to them. As me and certain colleagues have an agreement that we will care for each others children (subject to availability and parental agreement) at the same contracted terms, regardless if it puts us out of pocket.

It makes me so cross when you get high handed remarks such as you have made.

I agree. Training days and paid holidays are the preserve of the employed. Your self-employed parents will not be paid for either. Whilst I know that training days could be of benefit to children, this does not change the fact that you are self-employed.

No, I suppose you can take the view that it doesn't matter if some childminders try to rip off their clients if they can get away with it.

If I were a childminder I would be displeased to have colleagues bringing my trade into disrepute by doing unprofessional things like charging when they were not available or attempting to get clients to pay for holidays and training.

I would be aware that one of the main drawbacks for people who might like to choose a childminder is the fact of occasional unavailability, and I would not be happy for there to be a general perception that this inconvenience also came with a considerable price tag.

It would embarrass me to be associated with people who were self-employed who asked for paid days off rather than building those costs into the regular fee.

Skidoodly, that is entirely your perogative and its sounds like you have an agreeable arrangement with your childmnder.
However, as Millenium rightly points out - many childminders are now adding a negotiate 'holiday pay' into their contracts. I personally do not but I have been considering writing in 3 training days per year. I have in 2 years only taken days off to attend some training but for the most part all my training is in the evenings and weekends. The only reason I took the week-days off (unpaid) was that the training was excellent by some very highly respected and inspirational speakers/persons. I have also - for the last two years not worked on a Thursday as I have attended Uni - my choice and of course there was no charges made.

All childminders are different, and like parents have their ways of doing things and expectations. Just because you are of a particular mind-set doesn't mean that its right or wrong.

MILLENIUM - Richard Aris is genuinely working extremely hard to make things right within NCMA for its members. I can throughly recommend him to anyone who has had a problem for what ever reason with NCMA.

I would not pay anyone "holiday pay" unless I were their employer. If I am your client you don't charge me when you are not available for work or you will lose my business.

I am a very happy user of a childminder, but would use a nursery in preference to being gouged like this.

Having to make alternative arrangements when cm is not available is a pretty big drawback to this type of care. No way am I paying for the privilege.

Also, you say that many parents will get paid holiday so CM charging for hols is ok.

Well, I think you'll find that only employed people get holiday pay. Those parents who are self-employed will not get holiday pay. And as CMs are fond of reminding parents; they are self-employed.

But If I took a term time job I would not then expect my employer to pay me through the school holidays. Mainly, because I would not be willing to work them. I cannot expect them to pay me for weeks I am not willing to work. That would be unreasonable.

Expecting a parent to pay a summer retainer is one thing if you are open over the summer and willing to have their child. However, to expect them to pay a retainer to retain a place that is closed for 6wks anyway is ridiculous. Then asking for 2wks holiday pay during then enforced closure!

pippin26, you are so right. Unless the NCMA becomes fully aware of its members' concerns then it is not being given the best chance to put things right. I have heard others commending the efforts of Richard Aris. I remain a member of NCMA but do not use any of their documentation.

Picking up on skidoodly's comment, are you saying that you do not accept that some childminders will charge for their own holiday and training days which as I am sure you know, many do. I do not but it is an ever-growing trend and it is certainly not greed when you consider that many (but not all), parents of mindees will get paid for their holidays and bank holidays

Cheers Millenium for clarifying.

I would strongly urge all minders who have issues with ncma to let the customer services manager know. He sorted out my problem pronto. his name is Richard Aris - really lovely bloke and very keen to pulling the NCMA into line so that it is actually helping its members, so they NEED to know the problems and issues we have.
unless we let NCMA know what they are doing wrong (or right) then they can't change anything. even those who have defected to MM.

I agree that the NCMA's one size fits all, dictate what we should/shouldn't be doing is wrong.

I know, imagine an organisation for childminders trying to make sure childminders don't get a reputation for being a bunch of greedy gougers by charging retainer fees when they are on holidays.

Sharp practises like that are not just bad for parents, they are bad for other childminders.

I would never use a childminder so greedy that they would try to get me to pay them half their fee when they weren't available to work.

Greed might be a good quality in a banker (although I disagree) but it is certainly not in someone who cares for my children.

Sorry pippin26, I didn't answer your question. A 50% retainer is charged for the 8 week summer break and if the parent wants minding during that time then they pay what would have been the normal rate as well so in fact, it is not double time, it would be time and a half - sorry............

That is exactly my problem with NCMA trying to tell registered childminders how to run their business when it is our business to run, not the NCMA's. It is up to me to decide on how I handle deposits, retainers, holiday pay, payment for bank holidays etc. - I have never come across an organisation before that tries to gets its members all operating their businesses on the same business model. I think that too many of their recommendations are in favour of the parent and not the person that they are meant to be supporting - the childminder!!

Exactly right ruddynorah. A retainer charged is not an offer to work - it retains the space but gives the parent no right of access to that space until the date upon which the two sides have agreed to start the minding - why does this sound unreasonable - the childminder should run his/her business the way they want whilst mindful of the law (NOT NCMA recommendations).

It is also important to remember that the contract does not start on the first day of minding - it starts when the agreement between the two sides is reached which may be 4 weeks or perhaps 4 months in advance. It is therefore important for both sides to get that signed and dated contract in place straight away.

So many minders I see in the networks date their contracts to start on the first day they will be minding - NO, the contract should start straight away with the contract making clear when the first day of minding is so that all the terms and conditions are immediately binding on both parties.

Hi Millenium - according to NCMA you cannot charge a retainer for a space that is not available. i have just had a HUGE wrangle with NCMA over similar issues and got them to clarify things.

when you say your colleagues charge 'double' fee' what do you mean?
when a retainer is charge - its holding an open space - if/when that space is used then the normal fee applies -meaning the client 'tops up' making it the normal fee.

just depends on the contract doesn't it? there are no laws for such things. cm can charge what she likes, however unreasonable it sounds. especially when folk like the op are willing to pay it.

Millenium - these people are prepared to work for a top up fee. This CM seems to be charging a retainer, but not prepared to work. I would have thought a retainer 'retains the space', so it should be available?

pippin26, with great respect, I believe you are wrong. A number of my minding friends charge retainers to cover the summer holidays for all the teachers and college lecturers children they mind, but if they do work, it is double fee. They have it written into their contracts. One of them minds the two children of the Senior Lecturer in Law at our nearby Uni, so I doubt that that parent would let the childminder get it wrong!!!

That is fair enough she is charging retainer during the holidays - it will be a reservation retainer to hold the space open. If you are charging a retainer however - the space MUST be available for the client to use (subject to top up fees and adequate notice). If she is not prepared to work or open for business though then ideally she should not be charging a retainer. (I might be wrong on this point though). I am charging a holiday retainer for one of my clients as she doesn't need me in the holidays BUT I am willing to and open for business/work. Her choice not to use my services during that time, but the space is there if she needs it. If I closed in the holidays then I would not charge.

she can negotiate paid time of with you but again i do not think its right thats it during a time that she is not prepared to work - although for you the alternative is her taking paid time of when you need her - ie term time so the balance of this lies with you.
It might be worth you contacting NCMA for further advice: 0845 880 0044