Do women feel as if they're being told 'you shouldn't have a section'???

Oh I would agree with you on gas and air pupuce. Practically had a punch up with my m/w over the gas and air. If I had another mouthful of the stuff I was going to throw everywhere- and the m/w got very stroppy with me for refusing it!

I think the NCT teacher actually meant that m/w were good at knowing when you may well be in for a long haul. ALthough I guess sometimes dilation can occur surprisingly quickly especially after 2cm.

As for induction I think its hard. On the one hand you are told that not inducing will put your baby or you at risk (that's what I was told), but then inducing a labour can be incredibly hard- and in my case probably did lead to the section. My problems were really not so much the induction, but being in hospital for the entire labour as I was clock watched then fiddled with. Maybe induction suites away separate from the main labour ward would be good - a more natural environment for early labour? Not going to happen though is it? Ahh if I was in power

I went to NCT classes for my 4th baby and everything was covered inc forceps/ventouse and CS. I remember thinking it was a pretty boring topic for me, but I supposed I'd better listen anyway, just in case. We also did a lot on pain relief, everything from epidurals to hypnosis. The teacher certainly didn't make any judgments as to whether one option was superior to another, or that it was a matter of failing if you used such-and-such.

I know a number of NCT teachers and I must say, I can't imagine any of them being dogmatic or critical in their attitudes. Their wish seems to be for their clients to have the birth they want, whether it's a CS or under the nearest hedge!!

Interesting topic - didn't read it all !!!
I don't teach antenatal prep for the NCT but I do a lot of antenatal preparation with my clients (as their doula).

I respectfully disagree with Jimjams about MW knowing you're going to need an epidural - in my experience, some hardly ever see unmedicated births and can't quite believe it when mother refuses ! That's true of gas and air as 2 of my most recents clients did it wothout G&A.... MW said herself.... never seen it done without ! And believe me she pushed her to sue it... mum was adamant... she hates the stuff!

As for what you are taught and how it ends.... it's very tricky I must say. As doulas we often support women who REALLY do not want a section, that's why they want us there... we prepare them and then they go for an induction because they are overdue (which we have highlighted the risks and informed them of their choice -which they will acknowledge is more than the hospital might have) and they end with a section anyway - especially when the induction looked like it wasn't going to work from the onset !!!!! How much do we have to say/how far do we push it..... it's very tricky !

I agree with those who feel that they should be proud of their birth and baby.... no one should judge, we all make the best choices we can at any given time and sometimes in hindsight we wish we had done it differently (for example many will never be induced again!)... induction in particular is a topic women are well informed about (how the risks of management to section are much higher)- including on Mumsnmet - yet many still choose to do it and often go on to regret it!

I agree about the NCT experience - made great friends but in terms of birth preparation it was a complete waste of time. Our teacher was very anti painkillers and episiotomies and I, at the time, having never experienced labour, agreed. Wrote a birth plan (hah!) saying would prefer no episiotomy and no epidural. And then felt like a complete failure for "giving in" and having epidural and pethidine (despite having unassisted and "easy" - my doctor's description! - delivery). And tore really badly and ended up being restitched when dd was 8 months old I don't blame the co-ordinator in any way though really - she gave her views and it was my decision whether to agree or disagree. You just never know how you'll feel when its happening.

I agree and the BF lady (local NCT chairperson at the time) was horrified to hear our worries and fears all tumble out. I think our leader had little else in her life to occupy herself and it all went to her head. Bit of a reality check would have been nice.

It probably depends on your teacher. Ours had had a section herself and gave a very good preparation for section (I ended up with a section for non-progression with ds1- same as her - in fact 4 of the class out of 8 had sections- only one had a textbook birth). She also gave me an excellent bit of advice "if a midwife asks you if you want an epidural- bear in mind even if you don't want one right away its likely you'll need one- they're good at knowing how you're getting on".

However found the NCT (postpartum and bfeeding bit) itself very cliquey and quite unpleasant tbh. Not friendly at all. Our teacher was excellent and the group itself great and very friendly but I do think we were lucky with our teacher- and a lot of the other people I met outside the antenatal class were quite judging about sections (and everything else come to that). Even if it doesn't mean to I do think the NCT carries around a certian image which perhaps isn't helpful.

Sorry... this is a bit long...

We joined the NCT and went to classes, met other expectant mums/dads and looked forward to our baby's arrival. At the breastfeeding evening (with BF counsellor, not usual NCT leader) I cautiously stated that I was feeling increasingly anxious about the imminent birth. Almost as one the other mums agreed. It turns out we had all been leaving the sessions each week feeling more and more anxious about what lay ahead.

The message I was picking up from the NCT was that if we had any form of intervention (from induction to c-section) we would have a bad or negative birth experience, wouldn?t bond with the baby, breastfeeding would be difficult to establish, we would spend weeks recovering and it would all be horrible. This terrified me.

At 35 weeks our baby was estimated to weigh 7.5 lbs and so we knew we were going to have a bigger than average baby. My sister also has large babies so this was not a surprise to me. We had scans, diabetes tests, meetings with the consultant etc. and waited for the inevitable.

At 10 days overdue I was induced on the Wednesday night. Contractions were strong and 3 minutes apart from the start and we went on to have every form of intervention imaginable (paracetamol (?), DH massages, baths, wobbling around on the birthing ball, TENS, gas and air, pethidine, epidural and finally the dreaded C-Section on Friday morning. (We were offered ? ? have a little rest and then we?ll help you out with a ventouse?? which sent me into a blind panic as a friend has a little girl damaged from a bad ventouse delivery, and so choose the c-section which we had discussed in advance.)

When our baby was born (at 10lbs 1.5oz) I felt overwhelmed with emotion. I looked at her with total and instant recognition and finally felt complete. I loved her from the start. We both took to breastfeeding instantly and successfully (and lasted for 7 months or so).

When DH called the NCT leader to share our wonderful news, her disappointment was palpable. This was such a let down as we felt we had to justify our experience and proof to her that it HAD been positive and rewarding.

Of the 6 of us in our group two had relatively straight forward hospital births, two had c-sections after long labours, one had a very difficult forceps delivery and the last had a ?text-book? homebirth but felt unable to hold her baby for 12 hours afterwards, was never able to breastfeed successfully and has often questioned the lack of post partum support from the NCT (when she needed it most). The girl who had the forceps delivery was torn from ?here to there?, too many stitches to count and had a much longer recovery time than either of the two c-sections.

The best thing about the NCT is the group of friends (still v. close) and the sales! I only wish they (NCT leaders) were all as understanding and supportive of all the birth scenarios we are faced with. They are surely there to support us whatever our decisions, not judge us when we don?t follow the prescribed NCT route.

I don't have any experience of NCT actively campaigning against c sections, but when I went to NCT classes it was definitely a 'given' that c sections were a bad thing - not much talked about, and never in a positive way.

I had pre-eclampsia and after a 5 day failed induction, which was really scary, exhausting and uncomfortable, I eventually had a c section. I definitely got the impression that it was money that was stopping them operating earlier, that lack of funds was pressurising them into conitnuing the induction when it clearly was not working at all, and it was also clear that I had to have the baby asap as the blood pressure medication was no longer working.

The section when it happened was a great relief, and I felt as moved to see my baby born as any mother, I would imagine. It would have been nice if the NCT classes had prepared me to see the kind of birth experience I had as a positive thing, and not second best (ie the classes should give more equal emphasis to both kinds of birth - after all there is a lot you need to know about c sections and the aftermath, and a lot the NCT could do to de-mystify, and make the whole process less frightening).

Where does the NCT actively campaign against maternal choice c-sections? I don't ever remember seeing anything about this and I can't find anything on their website. I'm curious.

I have been reading the discussions about c-sec in press and statistics with interest because many of the people I know who ended up having c-sectins felt that they were pushed into it by professionals and that had better provision and decisions been made during their badly-managed births, then they would not have ended up on the op table. As it happens I see no reason why people should not get the delivery they want.

Have to disagree with the opinion that homebirth is supported because I had people looking very aggrieved when I told them that was what I chose to do. Luckily my surgery was unusually pro homebirth but from MIL to women who had gone through ghastly hosiptal births I was condemned or seen as slightly bonkers/ irresponsible. Have to say they were all wrong. It was a good experience. But Idid have support of partner and parents.

Think perhaps what people don't hear is that pain is sometimes maybe easier to manage in a realaxed environment, lowering need for ops when mother is unable to focus on delivery and it all slows down.

But generally am happy to hear positive stories from any type of birth cos precious few of them in my experience.

Kiwisbird, the NCT does actively campaign against maternal choice c-sections. As it happened I joined the NCT after my son was born and found it a fantastic way of meeting other mothers with children the same age - however, I just can't see why it actively campaigns to reduce maternal choice in one area. Yes, most women don't want a c-section, but some very much do. Why does the NCT want that choice away from them? I say again, I am not talking about c-sections for women who don't want them, but for the small number of women who DO.
BTW did some looking into why women in Brazil want c-sections, and studies seem to cite the appalling maternity provision in Brazil and - crucially - the lack of options for pain relief including epidural, which really does back up what I thought. If women felt truly confident that pain relief would be available to them, they might be less keen to have a section. BTW studies show that epidurals do not increase the chance of having a section - though of course statistics are very hard to come by in the area of childbirth as random or double blind trials are pretty much impossible.
Also, I've not written about this subject as I have a journalist friend who does - and I don't want to tread on her - professional - toes.

My love, I have been trying to sell a 'crisis in maternity services/why aren't we getting the births we want' story since I had my FIRST baby

Sorry Tiktok I didn't know that the NCT campiagn for a reduction in inductions, I was only aware of the latest campaign which 'seemed' to be anti c-section. I didn't join the NCT as I planned to because dd1 was born at 27 weeks, just before my scheduled classes were about to start!! Then I found locally they were very tea and home-baked cakes and fiercly competitive SAHM, I was the only working mum and couldn't join in the coffee mornings.

I wish that journalists could pick up on what real women want - CALLING ALL JOURNOS! Is there a story in it?

WEll our branch of the NCT has a very active c section support group with lots of women making no apology (nor should they) for c sections and they are the stalwarts of the branch, obviously this is at a local level.
The NCT firmly believe that natural birth and the least intervention is the best end result for a birth experience, membership numbers tell us many more feel this too.
I hd NHS ante natal classes and c sections were not discussed there either, nor was bottle feeding. One of our ante natal members had her daughter emergency c section at 31 weeks due to a blood clot, we al got to see her, this led to a crash discussion about them, which I think is important. Whether it is planned or not, I feel it is important for women to be informed, so that if they do need a section or anything that deviates from the textbook delivery, they know what to expect.
As an active member and committee member of the NCt, while that assumption could be made from ideology or hearsay, at ground level it is certainly not the case, I would urge anyone refraining from approaching the NCT on that basis to rethink as it is such a wonderful organisation to be involved with at any level you choose.
xx

Crunchie, that was a brilliant post. I agree with evey word

But why does the NCT campaign so much against maternal choice c-sections? They can't say they aren't something women want, as by definition that is precisely what they are. Yes, of course, campaign for better conditions - more midwives, better access to pain relief, birthing pools, home births for those who want them etc etc. All are vital to maternal choice. But IMO so is the c-section - for women who really want it, which is very few - around 3% of all pregnant women.

Finally I have read through most of this thread, can you tell I am bored at work!!

There are so many sides to this debate, and all of which are valid. What I find irritating however is the reporting of the facts. The media have sprung upon a small % of women who choose a C-section for 'non-medical' reasons. If all of these were dropped the targets would still not be achieved. Also what constitutes and 'elective' cs over and 'emergency' one. I know there was a thread about this not long ago, and I was deemed to have had 2 'elective' cs because I was not mid-labour rushed down to theatre etc. My 1st CS I couldn't avoid (27 week pre-eclampsia) the 2nd was partly choice, after looking at options. I was in hospital, my waters had broken/leaked but I was not in labour. I was given the choice of 'trial of labour' with induction, or a section. I went with the cs because I had also read that induction after a previous cs was not a good idea, and that the baby's head was not actually engaged. In the end it was the right choice for the baby and me. But it was a choice I bitterly regretted having to make, where was my water birth

I have to agree with Mears and others who say STOP INDUCING WOMEN! It is a proven fact (don't ask me to find back up info) that once you start intervention it is more likely to lead to more intervention. Unless a baby is seriously in trouble why induce at less than 42 weeks? The weekend?? It seems to me that the reason there is such a high level of cs is not women 'choosing' a cs, but dr's making it necessary. It is easy for the government/press to blame us women for the increase, rather than looking at the bigger picture. I am sure that most women would prefer a 'natural' birth and it worrys me more that less than 40% of births are considered natural (no induction etc) That figure does not come from us women excerising our rights, that comes from a total lack of respect from the dr's and a belief that they know better than nature.

The NCT should start a campaign, not for eductaion against cs, but for eduction against induction. That would lead to a massive drop in cs.

Right, I'll go back to work now after that rant

I know that b/f and sections can be compatible, I only said that in reference to me. Irrelevent as I have been told
I also know that Dr Fisk is well qualified and so forth, but then that begs the analogy, who knows more about driving, Michael Schumacher or a DRiving instructor, as well qualified as he is, he has never or is never likely to give birth.
How many of us have been victims of statistics making our choices worthless when it comes down to it... baby food, nappies, which car, which milk...
I can largely ignore any spiels about c sections as it does not affect me... Ignorance is bliss, but when I read things that denigrate things I have gone through then I am within reason to object and call the man a big fat ass
So I did!

but i did feel judged by people for my choice, while strangely my consultant understood that I SHOULD HAVE a choice. My ante-natal group was extremely negative about it and some women asked me why I bothered with the classes re. labour etc...I find that the most common reply to my informing people of having had a section was "was the baby breech?".

I certainly have never held the view that you have to go through the trial of labour to be "good" mother, that is hogwash!
A positive birth experience whatever method you choose, is a great start to motherhood which is why mothers should dictate how they give birth (with guided reason obviosuly in some cases)
Empowerment is key...
I'm off to burn my bra....

I think a glance at Fisks endless qualifications, his pioneering research work including lifesaving surgery on babies in the womb and many other things might mean that we ought to take his views pretty seriously IMO. That's not to say that anyone else has to have a caesarian. Of course not. But it is baffling to me that people seem to want caesarians to be dangerous, when modern, elective sections really aren't. And yes, it is safer not to have children at all. Being pregnant is a health risk and so is birth. We choose what risks we want to take in life, and it helps IMO if we are given information as to what those risks are, exactly. It is particularly ironic to me that the caesarians that NICE are most concerned to eliminate are actually the safest of all. Emergency c-sections in labour are less safe.
And I too breastfed my ds for over a year. Breastfeeding and sections are certainly not incompatible.

all of you have good points, which once again reminds us that this is a very important INDIVIDUAL choice. i opted for a section and could not have had a better experience: standing up the same day, catheter for 12 hours and drove after 2 weeks. Scar has disappeared completely and could wear bikini when baby was 3 months old.

Aw thanks kiwisbird. Its just that there seems to be a widespread belief that sections=bottlefeeding, which I didn't find to be true at all - have more problems trying to get the little blighter to have a few hours off than I ever had getting him on in the first place. Sending you lots of healthy vibes - sounds like an operation would be more horrible for you than for most people.
Btw, are you still up for a return to P'boro for the beer festival in August?