Caesarians are bad - Michel Odent now

amazing though if the labour induces the oxytocin then what about emergency sections? my dd was stuck in the birth canal , had to be ppushed back up for a section. Would those few extra cms made her happier?? its crap

Aloha a quick question how do I stack up, elective/emergency. 1st time Pre-eclampsia at 27 weeks, I was in hospital for a few days, knowing I would have to have a c-section, but didn't know when. They only made the desision an hour before I went to Theatre? I didn't PLAN to have a section or choose a date, I didn't have a choice. 2nd time in hospital as waters were leaking, it was agreed the baby was not engaged, although I could be induced it was 'unlikely' the baby would come naturally. I had a section??

Sorry I am being pedantic, but I am genuinely interested

I really think it's time M.O. was given a nice shiny medal for all he's done for choices in labour then steered in to his back garden to a nice potting shed and a consuming interest in orchids. He clearly has too much time on his hands and cannot let go of being in the spotlight. He is making women feel guilty and I agree that HMB sums it up perfectly in her first post.

Kiwisbird, there are only two categories of sections with names and they can both be really misleading - ie emergency can mean either a real crash section - ie like Madonna and Sophie Wessex had with a placental abruption, which is done incredibly fast when the mother and/or baby are in danger or a decision taken relatively calmly in labour when it doesn't progress. Elective just means planned in advance. I had one of those, but my baby will almost certainly have died without it and I might have too. Yet it can also apply to women who choose a c-section for any reason.

I agree it's flimsy, and I should be crosser than anyone with Odent because I am one of those women who had a truly 100% lifesaving section for placenta praevia, but I still think he has some good points to make - and he does say that he thinks sections are better than forceps deliveries, that sections are safe, and often necessary. He does suggest that unless otherwise indicated (ie in cases of pp) it should be possible for women to go into labour first before they have a section - just to get the hormones going. I think some of his stuff is bonkers, but also agree that it can't help anyone to be bullied into intervention, early induction, lots of people in the room and bright lights etc etc. I think he goes to the other extreme, but without the active birth movement and people like him women would still be undergoing conveyor belt births on their backs, no option of pools etc. I think all pioneers tend to be a bit loopy. As I said before, I had a section, loved it and would have it again by choice, so I obviously don't buy into his philosophy wholesale, and I have spoken to him and told him I had a section and he didn't say anything about my baby being damaged. Mind you, he probably wouldn't dare!

by elective I meant women who choose (esp 1st time birth) to have a section for personal non medical reasons say... Sorry I am not up on the very definitions as not encountered it before.
I totally understand women who have had diabolicla first time experiences to opt for another c section or if awful vag delivery first time, to then opt for it nest tiem, it is more being confounded by women who choose for the first baby to have one.
Prob asking for it here, maybe I am naive and just dim because I have been lucky enough to have 2 positive experiences, but I focussed hard for them as far as I can see!
And oxytocin not being present in vag births, does induction compromise it at all do you think?
Still of the opinion that the hormone issue he mentioned was a little flimsy to say the least and yes the whole guilt about birth thing is getting out of hand.
At the end of the days these are our bodies and our babies, they are nothing to do with anyone else in reality!

Don't think he could understand what anyone else was saying to him either. Certainly had a few problems catching on to sarcasm, even when it was pointed out to him (nothing to do with the famous french sense of humour I'm sure - ducks to avoid attacks from french mumsnetters )

And I can't be the only person who is wondering that , yet again, women are being told what to do in labour by a man. In the 60's women were bullied into high intervention deliveries, and now another man is pushing us in the other direction by inducing guilt with his half arsed, badly thought out, pseudo science. Strewth, haven't we got enough to feel guilty about as it is?????

Hercules: it's an oxytocin thing. Odent (the 2 minutes I listened to) was saying that there are reams of studies showing that Oxytocin is the hormone of non-erotic "love". If you have a planned C-sec neither baby nor mother get the big dose of oxytocin that a """natural""" birth would deliver to each.
Even if oxytocin does have this wonderful function, it's like saying that my kids having 2 servings of vegetables tonight will lead to better life-long health than average -- sure, it may contribute to their health, may even be statistically correlated, but there's so much more that needs to happen to an individual to effect their whole lives.

I would go to great lengths to avoid a C-section -- but I turned off Odent when I realised he was on (I'm normally a 5-Live addict). He winds me up no end.
Didn't realise he was French, though; I could barely understand what he was saying! "Mee-shell Oh-dant!"

I love your first post on this thread, hmb

From my n=2 perspective I have a ds (vaginal) who was very unhappy for his first few years, almost certainly because of the damage caused to his head druign delivery and a dd (caesarian) who was the most contented happy child you could wish to meet. It's evened up now pretty much, but basically I would agree the man's talking b**locks.

Excuse my ignorance but what the hell are the differences between a c section or vaginal birth. How the hell can one or the other affect the baby? It's not like it's going to remember and if it does I know which I'd rather my entrance be!!
As for no paim relief - i would not have had another child if epidurals didnt exist.

One very happy c-section baby here too. Sounds like this man could find better things to research if you ask me......I won't waste my time on him...

Fnar - I was a section baby - I'm not a miserable sod - I'm the happiest person I know!?!?

And with the Amsterdam/San Paulo thing, does having a natural birth make it more likley that you will work as a prostitute/smoke dope then/have a sudden urge to grop tulips???

Oh FFS! Good job I didn't listen to this. What a prize ass!

As that woman said one more sodding thing to feel guilty about.

I'd show him what it feels like to have a bloody preditor in the room. Oh, sorry, I forgot, I'm OK because I was a normal delivery. Hullo clouds, hullo f-ing sky.

Oh what a complete load of crap.
I've had 3 sections and my kids are all perfectly happy and healthy.
Most people would love to have the perfect 'normal' birth, but if there is no alternative what does he expect them to do, leave them in there ???

message withdrawn

Would he like to come round and see my two chortling and guffawing and high on the joys of life and
a) tell me how they could be happier
b) put himself in my place during my two labours without the emergency c sections and live to tell the tale.

Sometimes I wonder if this man has nothing better to do. He has done a lot for the right of women to choose their labour conditions and support, but isn't it time he BOGGED OFF and stopped stirring?
I've actually paid money to hear Janet Balaskas tell me how M. Odent was the midwife when she popped out her 4th, an 11ber. Well good for you guys but these birth professionals are more competetive and illusionist than the advertising teams for luxury cars.

My sister is desperately looking for a handbag which she cannot find in the shops. She is also searching the internet for the bag. Will she be any more pissed off if the bag arrives by Parcel Force instead of trawling round the shops?

Basically, I think the joy of having a child (however) cannot be measured on how it arrives!

Whoops, spent a bit too long composing that diatribe. What I actually meant to say was that I agree with the rest of you Especially CD.

I know that I'm biased but what a funny man.
Find it particularly amusing that if anyone suggests an anecdote then: "one cannot generalise blah blah, one must look at whole societies blah blah...." (please add own accent) but, when arguing his own point, anecdotes from his own experience are held up as universal truths eg. apparently only women who give birth vaginally, no pain relief, in privacy etc. report joyful experiences because they're the only ones to phone him and tell him so. Well I had a lovely non labour c section and have told lots of people (usually stopped when they started to drop off) about how wonderful ds's birth was but didn't actually feel the need to ring Michel Odent to tell him that. Apparently he does have books and books of evidence but did not really tell us about it in any detail whatsoever. Preferred just to go on and on about how we are mammals, which I don't think anyone was disputing.
For me though 2 moments were pmsl funny:

1. A woman in her 50s who had actually had 2 vagianl births emailed to say "oh joy, yet another thing for women to feel guilty about" to which Michel replied "yes, see, if you listen to women who have vaginal birhts they will tell you what a joyful experience it is"
2. Michel tells presenter that he is probably "only subtly damaged" as a result of his caesarian birth - splutter! Thought he took Odent's kind words very well really - think I would have decked him but as an induced, forceps delivery under epidural heaven knows whats happened to my capacity to love

Did anyone else hear it. What did you think? I'm sure I'm only saying all this as a result of underlying feelings of inadequacy, failed womanhood, trauma at being a sad victim of the patriarchal medical establishment etc. etc.

This man should sod off.

eggg-sactlly crunchie

btw, I'm not against quiet rooms/natural birth per se, just sick of dogmatic approaches of odent et al.