racism, judgement on 'ethnic' names?

I saw the same research as you Blu. It's very depressing, isn't it.

But as Speedy says, personal experience doesn't always tie in with the stats.

I was born with an Indian surname and given a Hindu first name. In my 20s that combination didn't once stop me getting interviews for jobs. (People with my surname are sadly stereotyped as being quite good in my chosen occupation, so it probably worked in my favour!)

Fast forward to my 30s. I'm now married and have taken my English husband's English surname. Should work in my favour according to the research but what a pain in the arse it's been. First I lost the positive connotations of maiden name. And then secondly any employer just has to put together my DoB and my mixed name, and concludes married woman in her 30s, pregnancy risk. The last time I looked for a job, I had a nightmare, which just never happened before. To be fair my CV is just as good as it ever was so I do struggle to explain the number of knock backs.

So I think it can work for you or against you depending on the circumstances.

"but if you've got a foreign surname sure it doesn't make a blind bit of difference whether it's a "British" first name or not - if they're going to discriminate on names the surname will be a give away even if you have a Henry George James Imbayago?"

The research I read DID find that a western first name and an African, Asian or Arabic surname on a CV gained more interviews than one with both names being A, A or A, because, the researchers surmised, one western name suggested a degree of mixed-ness, assimiliation and or integration, which employers found 're-assuring'.

Whether you wish to pander to this...well, your choice. Wouldn't it be marvellous if, rather than parents fitting in with the depressing conclusions (for entirely understandable reasons), this research was used instead to challenge this nonsense so that it is no longer a problem when Afia Kweli grows up ansubmits her first CV.

I didn't realise the poster lived in the US

I haven't read the whole thread, but just see the bit about CVs.

There is the same stuff about job outcomes when sending identical CVs, but changing names from "victoria" (viewed more favourably) to "vicky" (viewed less favourably)

mrsrufallo - so is it not racism that 2 identical CVs one with a 'white' name and the other with a 'black' name get different rates of job outcomes?

"American research findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_9_20/ai_104521293/"

Why don't you do what a lot of Ghanaians and other Africans I know do and have an African and European name. Choose whichever one you want for the first name, and then use them interchangeably. Then they can use whichever one is more beneficial to the situation.

haha I knew an Anjob! he doesn't go by that tho!

I teach in London and have encountered loads of children with African surnames and first names along with loads who have African surnames with 'more European' first names.... in a multi-cultural area I don't think that your child will come up against any prejudice, certainly not as a child as the schools are full of names from all over the world. I've taught Damilolas who went by Dami and others who preferred Lola, an Oyinkonsola who liked Oyin, one who used Sola (pronounced Sholla and another who called herself Victoria.

The only thing I'd steer clear of is choosing a name that sounds like a body part when pronounced by an English-speaking person.... I've taught children with names pronounced Anus and Nipple .

I don't think it's racism as much as people feel uncomfortable if they find a name hard to pronounce

Oh, and don't be swayed too much by the statistics - the most interesting information, I think, comes from individual stories. Regardless of one's name/ background, people still make of their lives what they will. You should never think that your choice of name will determine your child's future.

Examples that spring to mind immediately: Barack (surname sounds like 'Osama' ), Condoleeza, Brix (what's her surname - the charismatic fashion woman from How To Look Good Naked), Gok. They all have unusual/ ethnic names and yet are successful in their chosen areas - even politics hasn't barred the first two. And what about Hilary Benn?

Besides, if your daughter chooses to work in a media/ 'creative' area, an unusual name will be perfect!

Could you not just choose the name you like best - she can always choose to adopt an anglicised shortening/nickname if she wants to when older, even if she only uses it for some purposes.

And I agree that it is horrific that people still have to do this in 2010 - my great grandfather anglicised his surname (from the Italian) in the 1920s for just the same reason, but you would have thought that things would have changed by now

Seestah! Afia (if you're thinking of that) is gorgeous! What does it mean, and which part of W Africa is it from?

I am of W African descent, DH is white British. We went for a Jewish first name (because we loved it) for DS, followed by his grandfathers' names, so one of his middle names is African.

If we have a boy next time around we'll give him a W African name which is easy for Brits to pronounce and read.

IME some British people can be rather lazy when it comes to making an effort for names which they don't know. Lots aren't, but some are. IMO that's not a reason not to give a name which you love.

So I would go with a name which you adore AND which can be easily pronounced by all sides of the family. I hope that's not a tall order!

Is there any middle ground - an african name that is quite popular here, so not going to cause problems? Or a british-y name that is used in Africa?

Personally I would ignore what people say and go with what you want to call your baby. And an african name with african surname sounds fine to me. At the most, you might want to consider if it can be shortened to something that sounds more neutral

some easy reading on the subject

I think when applying for jobs, a name that is "foreign" in both first and surname would go down worse than a name which had an obviously european bit in it.

This was investigated at some length some years ago by 2 junior doctors who sent off identical CVs, one had a british name, the other was an asian name.The results were disgraceful. As a result of that I know 2 doctors who anglisized their names so as not to be discriminated against. FWIW both these blokes were born and brought up in england.

I agree you don't want to pander to this kind of racism, but you need to be aware of the effect of your ultimate choice.

Afia is a beautiful name btw

re the not attempting the surname thing - when I am feeling in need of entertainment I remain silent as they stutter through it

In my defence though, my life is VERY boring.

Both my kids have italian first and second names, anyone who wouldn't let them have job interview based on this alone isn't worth working for.

Go with what you want. Lots of successful people in UK with foreign first and surnames.

I suppose there are degrees of unusualness. I used to have foreign first name and foreign surname.

I married someone with the simplest and plainest English surname I could find and things got easier. Then I changed my first name too and things were easier still.

I was aware that people called Mr Foreign Foreign were dismissed without a glance whereas Mr John Foreign did get half a glance on the grounds that he probably had foreign parents but he might be English. So it did make a difference.

I think it's a sad truth that such discrimination does exist. However, that is not a reason to ignore your family's culture and go for a name you don't love.

Mind you, I worked in a conservative environment with a very successful Nigerian woman who had done just fine despite having a Nigerian first name and an unpronounceable/spellable maiden name followed by an equally unpronounceable/spellable married one.

If you love "Alice" fine. If you love "Afia", go with that.

but if you've got a foreign surname sure it doesn't make a blind bit of difference whether it's a "British" first name or not - if they're going to discriminate on names the surname will be a give away even if you have a Henry George James Imbayago?

I had a similar decision (foreign surname and wanting first names from both mine and dh's cultures). In the end we gave our dcs two first names one from dh's culture, one from mine and they each have both our surnames. E.g Jane Meryam Albibi Smith (so she can be Jane Smith or Meryam Albibi). That way they could write their full names on forms or choose only to use one or the other first names depending on what country they were job seeking in.

I was very aware of the research about CVs with foreign names getting less invitations to interviews despite equal qualifications. The research has been replicated again recently.

It's not right, and it is not nice, but you asked the question whether there is judgement based on names and IME there most definitely still is.

Personally I had real trouble once I was establishing my career due to a very unusal name which is hard to say and spell - so much so that I have changed it to something easy and English for work purposes.

Having worked for two different massive organisations and also 2 small local ones before that, I have to report that when recruitment was going on and cvs came in, a lot were judged on their names and assumptions were made about people based on their names and background.

I am sure you won't choose a name becuase of this issue alone, but that is my answer to your question. Bonkers, but true.

" Nothing that people will worry about sayiong out loud in an interview!"

you mean like my surname - have to say these days a lot more people do attempt to pronounce it (and more and more are getting closer to the mark with it) - but for the first 5yrs (maybe more) of being back in the UK with my new surname everyone just used to say "First name..........I'm sorry I don't know how to pronounce your surname" - everyone from doctors surgeries (where they had a system where ou name was called out), to schools, banks, businesses - they all used to chicken out on the surname.

That's interesting what you say about the cultural identity thing. My DS's are English born and bred, but they are also half Zimbabwean, it was really pure chance that they ended up with Shona first names, as our chosen first and middle names worked best wit h the Shona name first. But you're right it does cement their identity more as being half Zimbabwean.