AIBU to think that the word chav is crass and overused in this talk section?

Flowery is new working class or lower middle class.
She wouldn't 'fit' in upper (or lower upper)middle with her background.

Maggie, just to give another angle- I grew up in Sweden which is also popularly supposed to be a classless society. Well, it isn't: some people have more money than others, some have nicer houses, some are more likely to go to the opera and encourage their children to aim at higher education. There are very clear differences between nice leafy suburbs and less desirable areas and this feeling is growing.

But at the same time, there are big differences from the UK:

There is no assumption that if you belong to a certain class, you will automatically be less accomplished in the aspects of life that require simple common sense, such as child rearing. I have never had the same sense there that we of the middle class need to teach the lower classes how to behave around their children.

There is no assumption that if you belong to a certain class, you will be less able to do practical things such as cook a nutritious meal.

You may, of course, have less Latin, or less familiarity with higher education, but there is no sense that this will influence your general ability to deal with life.

And it is assumed that all parents (unless they are positively anti-social) have valuable practical skills to confer on their children.

Pretty well everybody attends the same schools, so there is very little in the way of an upper class which have a totally different way of speech and set of experiences. (the new independent schools are generally speaking not elite schools)

Many pursuits popular in the country- such as swimming (enough lakes and beaches for everyone), forest walks (right of public access), berry picking, skiing, skating, fishing and hunting- have no class connotations and don't cost very much, which means there can be common ground between people of very different backgrounds.

i think it is a very derogatory term and one i try to refrain from using on the name threads as it always gets me in the stomach when my daughters name is called 'chavvy' as it always is on MN.....i have a ten year old Ellie Mae and we have only ever had very positive remarks in RL and she adores her name AND we have never met another but apparently it is the height of chav-ness....

Those who claim that the word 'chav' is only about behaviour, do you mean that this is a word you would use of say, the daughter of an Oxford don who married a business tycoon- simply because she lived in a 10 room mansion and had an ostentatious life style?

Surely, the whole point of the word is to point at the perceived incongruity of people of a working class background aspiring to an ostentatious lifestyle? Certain people are not supposed to have an ostentatious lifestyle; if they do, that is vulgar and pretentious. Or can you be a public school educated chav baronet?

oh come on annabelsmummie, there is no class in Germany?

Everybody has the same accent? There are no groups who are more likely to make errors in their speech? There are no common sets of values within groups?

Everybody values education, labels, tv screens, period homes etc in the same way??

I find that harder to wrap my head round tbh, and I am not British either! I'm from Ireland, another supposedly classless place. (ha!)

It's not unique to the UK. There is lots of perhaps slightly more hidden classicism in the States, with WASPS and trailer trash replacing either end.

Good summary MrsVic!

Flowery, don't worry you are middle class. There has always been a least a little social mobility. If you like you can be part of the bourgeoisie (petty or not) although that's a fairly pejorative word in itself.

In general having a degree, a professional job and a good income is the normal definition of the middle class. In fact depending on the job, salary and level of education you might even be upper middle class. Just not upper-upper (old money) unless you have inherited money too, and possibly a title. Working class is generally a synonym for blue collar, ie people who work with their hands (except for skilled craftspeople and successful entrepreneurs). But then these things are just different ways of describing society, they shouldn't be thought of as static.

Same here sheep. DD is Bethany.

someone on here said my 10 year old sons name was chavvy which I was at.

His name is Ciaran (kieran)

It is awful Annabelsmum and really hard to explain. Basically people will mentally pigeonhole your class for the most extraordinary and impossible to explain reasons eg saying toilet instead of loo or lounge. Its such a subtle thing and impossible to explain, though Mrsvik does a pretty good job. Just be thankful you are German and well out of it !

just call your baby what you want and get on with it.

would it really affect how you felt about a name if someone said it was 'chavy'?

Because it's a relatively small island and it's hard to get away from it? It really is insular though. And the idea that you're stuck with or without your pedigree through life, and your grandchildren will be classified in the same way is horrible, as if people had some sort of Kennel Club record. It's a bit like the caste system, imo.

Being German (married to a Frenchman) and living in the UK, I just wanted to say that the subject of 'class' is very difficult to understand.

I just find it so strange how you can 'classify' people based on their income and/or education.... That concept is just so wrong and old fashioned imo.

We chose names for our children that we loved and that meant something to us. Whenever we visit relatives in Germany or France, people comment on how lovely the names are and they might ask about the meaning/significance of them (in terms of honouring relatives).

Here on mumsnet, people often simply say a name is "chav", "posh", "pretensious" or even "gay". That is simply so shallow imo!

So, its not just the term "chav" that I find offensive, but also "pretensious", "gay" or whatever... Why are you British so obsessed with "labelling" and "classifying" people and names???

Also, "Charva" wasn't a derogatory term. People used it to describe themselves.

Up here in the North East "charva" was a way to describe someone who (usually) wore tracksuits, trainers, rockport boots, gold clown necklaces and drank carling (usually on street corners). It was just a word of describing a group of people (like goth, sloan, etc).

Then the media got hold of it and it became "chav" and a lot of evil connotations went along with it as it became a racist term.

How this happened I've no idea.

Lol MrsVik

You have missed my class out - I am upper working class, dontcha know

Think Chav comes from Charva, which I think is an old Romany word for boy. To be honest I think it's horrible and as bad as calling someone a pikey.

But no, now hunting is banned in England it has now been overtaken by laughing and scorning the poverty stricken underclass.

Can I ask a question then? If being well-educated professional people with a reasonable level of income doesn't mean you can legitimately describe yourself as middle class, what else do you need to meet that description? I'm curious.

If anyone were to ask me, I'd describe myself and DH as middle class, we are both well-educated professionals and we have a good income. But neither of us have to go very far back at all in our family trees to find working-class roots. So should we describe ourselves as working class?

oh wrong f'ing thread again

I am so bored today, carved my pumpkin ready for Sat, i was so bored, will put a pic of it up later when its dark

Applaudes Mrsvik

Let me get this straight.

A chav is the lowest of the low - much talked about, much despised, never self-identified. Lower working class. They have Chardonnays and Jhaidens.

Someone who uses the word 'chav' is one rung higher than a chav on the social ladder, being inarticulate, poorly educated and desperate not to be considered a chav. Working class. They'd have a Kayleigh and a Liam.

Of course, go up a step and you will find people who deliberately wouldn't use the word chav in case it identifies them with the working classes. These kind of people shop in the 'right' shops, buy the 'right' cars and make sure everyone else knows it, despite the fact that only their peers give a damn. Lower-middle class. Their kids are Kate and Jack.

Studiously ignoring the lower-middles (apart from taking note of where NOT to shop and what car NOT to buy) are the upper-middles. Alternatively mocking and sucking up to the upper class, these individuals take pride in their thriftiness and generally shun the vulgarities of wealth, whilst earning a packet in the city. They prefer the names Maud and Earnest. Of course, once the lower classes get hold of those names, they'll have to rethink, but for now they are appropriately plain and non-trendy.

Then the upper class. They don't really think all that hard about anyone else, everyone else being an oik or new money upstarts. They have nothing to fear for their social status as it's been secure for centuries. They never actually spend money because they already have everything they will ever need. And they have never ever heard of the word chav. Children's names are John and Mary because if it's good enough for the great-great-great grandparents, it's good enough for them.

So, basically, everyone's a tosser (albeit a slightly better class of tosser than the tosser below him or her). God bless the UK.

DISCLAIMER: this post is meant as a joke. I very much like some of the names I mentioned. No offense intended - or rather, equal offense intended to everyone (including myself!!).

To me, the word 'chav' is more a reflection of a person's social values and morals, not a social class in the economic sense. I don't think that it is synonymous with working class at all

"The lecturer everyone seems to think they are middle class these days"

Spot on. People seem to think that if they own their own home, cars, degree, professional job, can afford holidays and so on, that this makes them middle class

Background is as important as it ever was as far as class is concerned.

I refuse to put myself in a 'class' category, i think it is outdated

omg on the subject of paki someone much younger than me said that someones husband was 'paki' and I said god that is so racist etc etc and anyway it turned out he was white and just 'rough' and apparently paki is used by the youth to describe anyone rough or skanky or whatever (her words not mine)

It really is quite depressing

I attended a lecture last week which was mainly on post modernism but we covered a bit of class aswell. The lecturer everyone seems to think they are middle class these days and I have to admit I agree. Most the working class people I know think they are middle class. People think owning their own car or house makes them middle class, when on earth did that happen?! Socio economically dh (formally from a council house) is middle class and I am working class but although we own our own house (with mortgage) have two cars, he has two degrees, i have nearly completed mine. We have always worked, we are still working class. It is nothing to be ashamed of!