Names spelled with diacritics

I think she is saying that anyone reading the name Sean does not think of it as a name which will follow English pronunciation rules. It just happens to be a non-English name that is so common that most people have learned how to say it (ironically, pronouncing it correctly for Séan even though it’s actually spelled incorrectly).

It’s like English people reading Diego or Guiseppe and knowing how to say them.

Well, then anglicise them. Shaun. Shawn.

‘Sean’ is not anglicised.

I love accents (had never actually heard the word diacritic before, every day’s a school day!). Use it if you like but I wouldn’t raise my child to insist on it’s use; I think it’d become tiresome for them come across as petty and precious.

That’s actually due to dialectal differences and the fact á makes a different sound in Ulster. It doesn’t give the ‘aw’ sound it does in Connacht or Munster.

For example
https://www.teanglann.ie/ga/fuaim/D%C3%A1n

So your Derry friend is perfectly correct.
It seems the Munster/Connacht pronunciation of Seán is the one that has spread to other places and become well known.

I’m not sure what you’re saying. Do you mean that Sean is an Irish name and therefore should only be used outside Ireland with the Irish spelling, fada and all?

If so, we’ll just have to disagree.

To a Scottish person, “wean” is pronounced two ways- “ween” for the verb of introducing a child to solid food, and “wayne” to mean a child (in very very common use in the Central Belt and not all related to Gaelic, before anyone suggests it).

Fair enough. Your point wasn’t really clear from ‘What about ocean?’ though 😅

There is no rule in English against deviation in pronunciation or of obedience to an originating language.
I wouldn’t see Sean as an English name even if the spelling lacks the fada. John is the English form.

Lots of people have names written in none english alphabet - chinese, arabic, hebrew. They have to translate their names into the english alphabet to be able to use them in english language records. Similarly a name with a diacritic is not in the english alphabet, so I would expect you'd have to translate it to that alphabet.

Lots of Hebrew root names in lovely Irish names

I know a Derry Seán whose name is pronounced 'shan', like Siân. I always put the pronunciation down to him being a 'wan', since his name does use a fada.

It just seems many people don't know how diacritics change the sound of a letter or word.

In this example, the fada on the 'a' elongates the sound and changes the pronunciation to 'shawn' rather than 'shan'.

Meant to agree about the sean 'bean' example, mean, wean etc.

My point was about variation in pronunciation.

There’s nothing to stop spelling giving rise to different pronunciation even when it’s identical: my cat has nine lives and lives in my house; I threw one stone; etc.

Names are particularly prone to different pronunciation. There is no rule in English against deviation in pronunciation or of obedience to an originating language.

Although it was borrowed from Old French of course, arriving in Ireland with the Normans, and before that Hebrew I think😊
(Seán is cognate with John.)

Fawn and ocean don’t rhyme in my accent, though I know accents vary so maybe they do for some.

In any case, the point stands regarding Seán/Sean. It’s not an English language name and the pronunciation comes from the Irish language.

What about ‘ocean’?

In English it actually rhymes with fawn or dawn.

@Elbowpatch No, that’s the Irish language pronunciation (more or less) which English speakers still use…though they change the Irish spelling by leaving out the accent.

‘Ean’ doesn’t normally rhyme with ‘awn’ in the English language.

In English, the name Sean rhymes with Bean though

In English it actually rhymes with fawn or dawn.

At least, that’s how the two Seans I know pronounce their name.

As an Irish person who speaks and reads Irish, when I see the word 'Sean' I read 'shan'. That word means 'old'. The fada makes a completely different word. I'm sure there are many examples from other languages of an accent or lack thereof being essential to meaning

In a predominantly English speaking country the chance of confusion is minimal

What you’re doing is mangling.

Or adopting names and anglicising them. I really can’t see why that’s a problem.

To your last point, absolutely. In French, ‘mur’ means wall, ‘mûr’ means ripe. ‘Mais ’ means but, ‘maïs’ means maize. ‘Tache’ means ‘stain’, ‘tâche’ means task. ‘Ou’ means ‘or’, ‘où’ means where. Etc etc.

It’s not ‘the English form’. For that, you would have to use the rules of English language orthography. Which would be ‘Shawn’ or ‘Shaun’.

‘S’ does not make an ‘sh’ sound in English, as it does in Irish in some positions. ‘Ea’ in English is pronounced ‘ee’ as in ‘heap’, ‘shear’ or meal’.

As @mathanxiety says ‘Sean’ (no fada) in Irish is pronounced ‘Shan’ and means ‘old’. ‘Sean’ pronounced according to the rules of English orthography would be ‘Seen’.

What you’re doing is mangling.

In English, the name Sean rhymes with Bean though.

It's simply not an English name, and if the slender S is pronounced properly, then its fada should be included too, when writing the name.

Pronouncing the name properly (i.e. 'shawn') but spelling it incorrectly (i.e. Sean) is picking and choosing which elements of the orthography of another language you're going to observe.

As an Irish person who speaks and reads Irish, when I see the word 'Sean' I read 'shan'. That word means 'old'. The fada makes a completely different word. I'm sure there are many examples from other languages of an accent or lack thereof being essential to meaning.

I’m thinking of names other than Zoë here but…English isn’t the only language in the UK so why should the English alphabet alone be considered relevant?

Scottish Gaelic, Irish and Welsh all have accents. These languages shouldn’t be considered ‘foreign’ languages within the UK. I’ve noticed a few posters now seemingly considering English as the only relevant language, but there are a few other languages native to this place too.

Accents aren’t foreign to the UK.

Yes, exactly. Dear Lord, the lack of knowledge of the obvious on here can be astonishing.

Agree.

Like all biases and stereotypes, it's completely unreasonable.

Capital letters can certainly have an accent (called a fada) in Irish and Northern Ireland is part of the UK,
For example, the names Éabha, Úna, Órla, or Íde all have accents.

I’m not sure about Scottish Gaelic or Welsh but guessing that Scottish Gaelic at least is similar regarding accents on capitals.