ar is a spelling convention not a vowel sound!
It's a way of representing a vowel sound. How it's actually spoken will depend on the speakers accent.
When I read aloud the word cart I say the ar as a single, long vowel sound.
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 23:11
No, I'm not, I'm answering increasingly ridiculous questions from some pp.
Edited
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
OnlyWhenILaugh ·
18/09/2024 23:09
You are falling over yourself muddling spelling conventions and pronunciations.
Whether you like it or not the 2 letters "ar" can represent long 'a' vowel sound in written English. Non rhotic speakers will not say the 'r' but it's presence in the word affects how the vowel is spoken. So it has an important function even if its not spoken.
R is not itself a vowel obviously, but together with the a the digraph represents a vowel sound.
Quoting BarbaraHoward
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 23:02
I don't pronounce r as a long vowel.
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
BarbaraHoward ·
18/09/2024 22:59
It's not an ar sound. It's a long vowel, and you happen to pronounce ar in the same way.
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 22:59
But my name doesn’t have an r in it and is pronounced with the ar sound, so you telling me my own name is wrong? My friend Jana pronounces it with an ar sound, is she wrong too? These are our names, we pronounce them correctly and if you pronounced my name without the ar sound I would correct you and expect you to accept that, in the same way if I met someone called Zana and I pronouncemd it with the ar sound and that was wrong I’d expect them to correct me and I’d accept it.
Not everyone speaks like you!!! Accents and dialects exist! It’s part of the amazing fabric of life. How are you still not getting this? The world isn’t according to YOU
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 22:56
I can tell you that there is no r present in the word Zana, because there literally isn't. You can choose to add one if you like, but it's incorrect to then suggest everyone should also be saying Zarna because you do.
It"s Za na, not ZaR na.
How were you taught to pronounce a?
Edited
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 22:53
It is to me. Maybe it’s not to you, but, as it’s my bloody accent, it is to me. You can’t dictate my own accent to me.
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 22:52
Quoting BarbaraHoward
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 22:51
No because as a few of us have said, aa and ah are completely different sounds, they don’t sound the same as ar and I don’t say bath with an aa or ah sound.
Quoting OnlyWhenILaugh
BarbaraHoward ·
18/09/2024 22:50
Aa, ah or simply "a long A" will all be more universally understood, even if they're not perfect. It's very hard to write a pronunciation perfectly anyway unless you can write the phonetic alphabet - and even then no one can understand what you've written. 
Actually, MNHQ need to start allowing very short voice notes in this topic only. I utterly hate voice notes in all other cases but it would be useful here.
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
OnlyWhenILaugh ·
18/09/2024 22:46
But you haven't provided a more practical alternative.
How would you represent the long a sound to have a greater consensus or understanding
Quoting OnlyWhenILaugh
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 22:41
I don't see this logic at all. For me it just adds confusion.
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
OnlyWhenILaugh ·
18/09/2024 22:39
Yes, you pronounce the vowel differently in words that actually contain an r. So it is perfectly reasonable to use that same convention of using the ar digraph to indicate a long a in threads such as this!
Whether or not you also pronounce the rhotic element doesn't alter the fact that seeing the ar spelling even you use a longer vowel sound.
Quoting OnlyWhenILaugh
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 22:31
Yes, the r in a word which actually contains an r!
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
OnlyWhenILaugh ·
18/09/2024 22:26
Half the population? Who on this thread uses the same vowel sound saying cat and saying cart?
There may be an accent that does simply 'add an r" but I can't think of one.
You acknowledged that in your accent the r in the spelling changes the way you say the vowel sound.
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 22:17
Exactly - half the people.
That excludes another half.
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 22:16
Not for half the people on this thread who have understood it perfectly?
Quoting HotCrossBunplease
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 22:16
Aa isn't perfect, I agree.
It's much less confusing than ar though.
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
HotCrossBunplease ·
18/09/2024 22:14
Where did you get your degree in linguistics?
The only “correct” method is to use the IPA. Your favoured “aa” is also “incorrect”.
Quoting HotCrossBunplease
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 22:12
They can choose it, of course.
It's incorrect though.
I'm not upset.
I'm not the one swearing.
I'm not the one making bad insults.
Edited
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
HotCrossBunplease ·
18/09/2024 22:11
If a non-rhotic speaker chooses to use “r” to convey a long vowel they are not wrong, they are just using a method which risks being misunderstood by some rhotic speakers. Perhaps they don’t give a fuck about rhotic speakers getting confused. That makes them rude and inconsiderate, but not wrong.
You can choose to get all upset about this and communicate your view by pretending to be really stupid and whining “but there is no “r” in the word” on a loop for hours and hours. But that’s quite offensive to people like me who took your “I don’t understand” at face value and spent time explaining.
As a rhotic speaker myself, but one who is interested in language, I can easily work out what they mean even though it’s not a method I myself would use. I’m sorry you are more interested in being “right” than in talking about language in a grown-up way.
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 21:56
It's wrong to convey a long a as ar, if you're speaking English (wherever you're from).
I don't care how they speak, just don't use r to emphasise an aa sound because r isn't universally pronounced.
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 21:49
They’re only adding it to show you how we pronounce it. People are tried a million ways to show you that’s the pronunciation that comes with a particular accent.
People have accents and dialects. The ‘r’ is to try and convey the way we talk. That’s it.
mobile is adding an r to anything, it’s just how we talk!! People talk differently and it’s really fucking cool that we do. But none of us have told you that you’re wrong for your pronunciation but you are hell bent on telling those of us that speak differently to you how wrong we are!!
Would you tell a Welsh, Irish or Scottish person they’re wrong? How about someone from an English-speaking country that isn’t the U.K? Or is it purely because it’s a southern accent?
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 21:45
I'm not ignoring anything though, folk are adding a letter to make it read differently than it is written. 🫣
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 21:42
…you are aware that other cultures/countries/ethnicities/regions and so on have different accents and dialects to you right?
People don’t have to add letters to things because you wilfully choose to ignore them. 100% you would pronounce my name because it has the ‘r/are/(c)ar sound that we are discussing without any extra letters. But it’s my name, which I was christened with and it’s up to my parents and now me how it’s pronounced, not someone who has decided that the pronounciationnis incorrect because it doesn’t fit in with their view. I could never tell an Irish person that Maebh should actually have a b sound rather than a v sound.
The world isn’t according to you.
Edited
Quoting CellophaneFlower
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 21:39
Zana is Zana (short).
They can change the a sound/emphasis by adding different letters.
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
CellophaneFlower ·
18/09/2024 21:33
But aa doesn't work as we don't know if it's ay, ah etc. I wouldn't have expected people to know what I meant by putting Zaana. To me that just sounds like I'm meaning Zanna.
Quoting CellophaneFlower
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 21:26
The sound doesn't need to be exaggerated at all, however if they insist then another a would be best (aa).
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
CellophaneFlower ·
18/09/2024 20:49
So they're fine to add an h, just not an r? You keep saying there doesn't need to be a letter added but you have to add something to exaggerate the sound.
Quoting CellophaneFlower
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 20:44
To exaggerate what sound though?
If they want to exaggerate the a do that, no need to add an r!
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
CellophaneFlower ·
18/09/2024 20:41
Yes but people put the r to exaggerate the sound. Perhaps it doesn't work in your accent, but it does in ours. I put ah when I posted but I can see why others have used r. It's really not that deep.
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 20:38
It's not pronounced ar though, it's ah. That is the point!
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 20:29
Because it’s pronounced like ‘are’ not ahhhh. So people are using an ‘r’ to try and explain this.
Don’t would be pronounced Z-are-na
Quoting napody
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 20:26
Some folk are saying they actually pronounce an r sound though.
I can understand the extended a.
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
napody ·
18/09/2024 20:23
In non rhotic accents we don't actually say the r separately. We just say a long 'aaa' sound. Like at the doctors when you're a kid- 'say aaaaah'!
People using their own versions of phonetic spellings has created a load of confusion on this thread, so to increase it, I'd say Zaaahna 😂
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 20:19
Why are people adding an r that isn't there?
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 20:18
How bizarre, on tv show I watch a particular character is called Lana it’s pronounced Larna and my friend is called Jana and she pronounces it Jarna.
Guess different pronunciations. I’ve never heard then pronounced any other way personally.
Oh and we also pronounce it ‘Barth’ and grarss’. Just like most people do where I live.
Languages and accents are complex, and the English language has a lot of silent letters and words which are spelled the same but pronounced differently.
Edited
Quoting NoUseForAN4me
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 19:49
La-na, Ja-na, definitely not Lar-na or Jar-na. There is no r!
Edited
Quoting rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou
NoUseForAN4me ·
18/09/2024 19:35
but Lana and Jana are pronounced with an R sound? Or have I misunderstood your post?
Quoting Mikunia
rosesareredvioletsareblueaimverytiredandsoareyou ·
18/09/2024 19:23
It needs an r to be ZaRna though.
It's possible to get the 'anna' sound with one n e.g. Lana, Jana, Tana.
Edited
Quoting SnapdragonToadflax
Mikunia ·
18/09/2024 19:06
This. It needs a double consonant to achieve the pronunciation your friend wants, in English.
SnapdragonToadflax ·
18/09/2024 18:55
Probably Zar-na? I'm southern. It would need to be spelled Zanna to get your friend's pronunciation.