Saoirse?

Translation of the poem Saoirse.

https://www.poetic-voices.com/poets/sean-o-riordain-56932409-31b5-47b1-91c1-16d7a9b2560d/poems/saoirse/readings/286

Yes I'm from the private school in South county Dublin set and everyone did Irish unless they'd grown up out of the country. That was in a Catholic school but I wouldn't have thought Catholic Vs Protestant makes a difference in that sense. It's not like (the many many many) South county Dublin Protestants identify as British, they're just as Irish as the Catholics.

As I said I now live in NI and have a friend who is also from Dublin but Protestant - she has Irish language art up in her house and her DD has an Irish name. No difference in the Irishness of our upbringings. She does break the NI equality monitoring forms though, they don't tend to understand a Protestant from ROI

But I do know that kids don’t “have” to because I knew several whose parents opted them out. Vast majority will take part and then drop it by secondary. But it isn’t compulsory like maths would be.

Just for clarity, Sparkle, this is what I'm referring to.

It's wrong.

You didn't clarify it later you just referred to exemptions, then private schools.

I still don't know what you meant by 'vast majority will take part & then drop it by secondary'.

Anyway, you have the correct info now; I expect it was just a small number of friends who for one reason or another didn't take Irish.

@EarringsandLipstick I didn’t say all of them about a quarter to half of them didn’t make it to doing leaving cert Irish. Which gave me the impression that it was quite a common thing but obviously it isn’t.

I realise it is called an exemption….. the people involved were Irish born and had learnt Irish in primary, so the only option for them getting an exemption would be that they had special needs (autism/dyslexia)… which I doubt would be the case for all. So was trying to work out was it that they attended fee paying schools.

I suppose I will never know as not been in touch for over a decade.

Thanks for the clarification.

I’ve got the idea that Irish, while offered, may not be compulsory in a fee paying private school

No, not any more so than a non-fee paying school.

If teachers are paid by the department, they are required to follow the curriculum

particular cohort may be representative of posh areas south dub and Wicklow

I know this cohort very well & have not come across any evidence of under-representation in Irish.

The independent schools are across Ireland, not Dublin-based (in fact there's literally only a couple in Dublin)

I think you just happen to know a small group who for one reason or another didn't do Irish. It's reasonably common to get an exemption, it's not described as 'special needs' by the way.

Your earlier posts were wildly inaccurate, btw.

@EarringsandLipstick

I did clarify my previous post to say “by the end of secondary” most would drop the language and not be using it.

Poor choice of words on wouldn’t follow the national curriculum what I meant was it may be optional rather than compulsory? I’ve got the idea that Irish, while offered, may not be compulsory in a fee paying private school via googling the internet tbh because I am still baffled by how so many I personally knew didn’t do it/dropped half way through secondary/didn’t do the exam.

Accept that this particular cohort may be representative of posh areas south dub and Wicklow and not of the whole of Ireland.

But it is puzzling me, as I don’t think they were all special needs. Private fee paying schools is the only thing I could come up with, when I googled it stated this but posted here for further clarification??

Note I am only trying to work out the educational dynamics of the social groups I was in, not transpose that their experience would be applicable in all of Ireland. Clearly not.

That's not true @SunnyFog at least in your explanation of Maedhbh (another spelling!)

It's a lot more to do with the oral nature of the language, and the different dialects - there are just multiple spellings of certain names, they are not necessarily time specific. Some Irish names also became anglicised, while still 'Irish' eg Maeve, my native Irish-speaking grandmother's name.

the reason Irish names have many spellings is Irish spelling has been revised several times since it was designed in the 4th century. The language has developed and sounds changed.
Medb = Old Irish
Méadhbh = Classical
Méabh = Modern

And sorry, finally, most of the independent schools are primary schools. They aren't required to follow the curriculum, they receive no departmental finding.

However, they are usually linked to private fee-paying secondary schools that do receive state funding. In practical terms, they will follow the national curriculum, as otherwise, they'll end up with children struggling to find a suitable secondary or trying to adapt to a school following the curriculum.

You are therefore talking about a tiny number of schools & it seems unlikely your friends all went there.

@Sparklecats

You are possibly thinking of independent schools. There are fewer than 60 in Ireland. These are not funded by the Department of Education.

In private schools, the teachers are paid by the State. They do follow the national curriculum.

You seem a bit confused!

They are, a little though.

The vast majority of LC students do Irish. Under 16% of students don't, and at least 70% of those to do on the basis of a health exemption eg dyslexia, or not having studied it prior to moving to Ireland, by a certain age.

Most Protestant and private schools do offer Irish. They are required to follow the State curriculum too, I've no idea where you got that idea!

Your previous posts saying many people didn't study it at second level makes no sense. A small number will drop Irish on the basis that they don't need it to matriculate, and in many instances now, Irish is considered alongside modern European languages, for the purpose of matriculation.

They all went to Trinity, DIT or studied in the U.K. so wouldn’t have needed Irish

Phew I am relieved my recollections are not barmy.

It’s been bugging me why so many I knew socially didn’t do Irish at secondary level or didn’t do it for leaving cert… I was thinking they couldn’t possibly all have been special needs… I’m sure I’d have noticed that!!

And then I realised!! - Private school, and in some cases (historically) Protestant private school.

They wouldn’t have had to follow the State curriculum.

And you can skip the exam even in state schools…

I was starting to think I was losing my marbles.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/why-do-so-many-leaving-cert-students-skip-the-irish-exam-1.3827075

Irish names can’t be ‘nice and plain and sensible’? I can assure you I have the ultimate ‘nice, plain and sensible’ Irish name.

Maith thú Sparklecats!
The poem challenges the concept of freedom without boundaries and says he will embrace rules and tradition, the routines of church. He says there is no limit to imagination and no rest to be had.

A Leaving Cert poem many people studied.

I personally wouldn't use an Irish name for my child. I don't really like them. They are fine for other people . But if I had a girl I'd call her something nice and plain and sensible. Thats my style.

@Mooshamoo not that wiki is always reliable but here is a list of Irish names, some alternatives and anglicisations/equivalents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish-language_given_names

The history buffs can fill you in on the whys and wherefores.

Did happen to catch via this that Saoirse is not a traditional Irish name taken on by republicanism for the newsletter and so forth… but only came into use around the Irish revolution

“The name Saoirse means 'freedom' or 'liberty' and it was first recorded as being used in the 1920s Irish revolution as a statement of freedom. It has been known as a given name ever since!”

So it’s only been in use for 100 yrs and is directly tied to Irelands recent history which I did not know at all.

I knew in Irish language that 'bh' is v

But the name maedhbh seems particularly unusual to me. It's a mouthful

So does "dhbh" = V aswel

Is it not because they were anglicised to some extent? (I don’t know) Or just like with other names there are variations?

others I can think of

Una, Oona, Oonagh
Owen, Eoghan, Eoin
Cliona, Cliodhna

And there is maebh and maedhbh

I was just thinking , while on the topic of Irish girl names. How come some Irish girl names are spelled so differently in Ireland.

Like with siobhan there is only siobhan

However take the name Orla.

I know an Orla, I and I know an Orlaith.

Or Riona.

I know a Riona and I know a rioghnagh. I wonder how the variations came into being.

@ColleenDonaghy isn’t it awful to have to be defensive and that people would come on spouting nonsense like that.

I lived in NI as a child/young teen, ROI as an older teen/young adult. Then NI on and off. We are still back and forth frequently and have family polarised in terms of background.

Saoirse is a beautiful name, but we decided we wouldn’t go for it because of the connotations that could pose risk of our child being treated negativity or being pigeonholed.

I think it was a fair enough point to make that if you want your child to be free to roam to take up job opportunities or socialise everywhere across Ireland that it’s something to be aware of.

@Sparklecats in general I agree with you about the many different forms of Irishness, and with increased immigration in recent years that breadth is only increasing which is a great thing.

But I've been on here for many many years, and have noticed a few posters over the years that like to make very definite statements about Ireland, Irish people and Irish culture that have zero grounding in reality. I remember one thread years ago where one poster insisted at length that there were no wealthy people in Ireland. So those of us who have been here a long time can tend to be on alert for this behaviour.

If anyone has a better translation than that please post, that’s the best I could do with google translate!!

I will go down among the people
By walking my foot
I will go. down tonight.

I went down looking for slavery
From freedom
It's lying here:

The contract is a bond of ideas
There is, droning butter around
In solitude:

The temple is regular
It was full of people
At a given time:

It's a group of people
Never practiced freedom,
Don't be alone:
Let's listen to the shilling thoughts,
Which is exchanged
As money:

My heart's love is for people
Never dreamed of them
But thoughts.

O stay with you day and night,
I will be low,
and I will be faithful,
Your brainstorming.

As they heard growing in mind,
Growing endlessly,
Without moderation.

You gave my heart's affection fiercely
Because there are restrictions,
For each macro:

To the rule, to the law, to the human temple,
For the common poor word
For each time:

For the abbot, for the bell, for the servant
For the dreaded comparison,
For the minor:

To the mouse, to the measure, to the little flea,
For the chapter, for the line
For the alphabet:

For the grandest departure,
For gambling at night,
For the blessing:

For the farmer measuring the wind
In the autumn it is at a meeting
On a barley field:

For mutual understanding, for mutual old memory,
For fellow human beings,
For the common good

I will hate now and forever
For freedom events,
For independence.

The mind is tired
Who fell in the deep ridge of freedom,
A hill that God created does not last,
But short hills, special hills of imagination.
Each hill is full of wishes
Climbing unfulfilled,
There is no limit to freedom
Nor by the hills of imagination,
There is no limit to the wishes,
Don't be relieved
Available.