Page 5 | Gaelic names spelling and grammar

ShanKayak · 2020-12-22T08:29:54+00:00

This thread is for talking about grammar and spelling of Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic names, in the hope that posters looking for baby name inspiration won't find their threads running off topic.

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KosherSalt · 01/01/2021 18:44

@ShanKayak

On the spelling Roisin, without any fadas, this would be the appropriate spelling for a name that I have heard all my life, with two short vowels. I am not sure if it is the same name as if you added fadas, which I have also heard all my life said in many ways including to rhyme with "washing", which could be spelled without fadas, except that it follows the usual way those sounds would be said in Ulster dialect, so it is predictable is the speaker would feel they are making both vowels long. The name without fadas may come from another root, as similar sounding names exist very widely and they don't all mean "Rose". If you want to name your child "Rose" in Gaelic the the two fadas are required for the standard spelling.

Are you talking about Irish now, in relation to Róisín, or Gaelic?

Original poster

ShanKayak · 01/01/2021 18:30

On the spelling Roisin, without any fadas, this would be the appropriate spelling for a name that I have heard all my life, with two short vowels. I am not sure if it is the same name as if you added fadas, which I have also heard all my life said in many ways including to rhyme with "washing", which could be spelled without fadas, except that it follows the usual way those sounds would be said in Ulster dialect, so it is predictable is the speaker would feel they are making both vowels long.
The name without fadas may come from another root, as similar sounding names exist very widely and they don't all mean "Rose".
If you want to name your child "Rose" in Gaelic the the two fadas are required for the standard spelling.

OP posts:

florascotia2 · 01/01/2021 18:24

At the same time as it was banned in schools ,Gaelic became romantic, exotic, the 'other'. People just borrowed bits that appealed to them, without bothering to check.
I don't think there's any grammatical pattern.

People most certainly did not write their names using the vocative. Why should they? They'd use the nominative. BUT for most of the early 20th cent, Gaelic was banned in schools, so they would have written their names in the English form: eg Mary for Mairi. I remember older neighbours telling me how they were beaten if the spoke Gaelic in the classroom or playground - even if they and their classmates had no other language aged 5 or 6.
As I've said before, Hamish is an ENGLISH language name. It's not used as a Gaelic name. If a Gaelic-speaking person had written their name down c 1900 - 1960s, it would have been either Seumas or James.

Original poster

ShanKayak · 01/01/2021 17:59

Catching up. Coming back to the spelling Mhairi or Mhàirì. It's a spelling that is used and suggested, and has people saying it is "wrong". I feel uncomfortable when people mock or jeer at any name. This one intrigues me. Why did this form get used ever?
Anglicised forms of Scots Gaelic names very often seem to be derived from the vocative. Eg Hamish. Why is this? Is it that people were asked to write their names in English spelling and chose to use the vocative form? Or is it in fact a case of naming children with a surname, as is common in Scotland? Or was the Gaelic fading in contact and under pressure from English, so that people without education in Gaelic spelling and grammar began to use the dative/ genitive/ vocative case forms on place of the nominative form?
Is using the spelling Mhàirì in some way connected to whatever happened to the Anglicised names? Doubtless some people are using this form without being clear why, but others may be honouring a mother, aunt, or grandmother, and someone somewhere might have an explanation.

OP posts:

LizzieAnt · 31/12/2020 00:57

I don't know @ShanKayak. I, for one, don't think I've a complete knowledge and understanding of Irish. In fact, I know for sure I don't, not even close. I wish!!
Neither do I think the language is like some moral dilemma where there's no right or wrong. Things are thankfully a bit more clearcut. If I get things wrong I appreciate someone telling me and I enjoy learning from others as often as I can. You make it a bit more challenging mind you - I never know whether to believe you or not
I guess most of us on this thread love the language. Glad to see you back.

Candlesticking · 31/12/2020 00:09

But you’re wrong about several things.

Original poster

ShanKayak · 30/12/2020 23:06

@LizzieAnt

Yes, ró means 'too/very' in Irish as well florascotia2. Ró-ard means too high for example. I haven't heard it used in the sense of 'before', but then I'm not a native speaker or as fluent as I'd like, so I'm not sure if it's used in that sense in Irish. The modern Irish version of Ruadh is spelt Rua all right - I think the OP is using Irish in that example she gave.

OP, I think you need to make it clear when you write something here whether you're referring to conventional wisdom/established fact or just telling us your own novel musings! I like the way you think - still chuckling about Solomon/ Súilleabhán from another tread - but it's causing problems when you present something as fact without a shred of evidence. People feel obliged to correct you then in case it causes confusion.

I like that list florascotia2. Thank you.

Wow what a lot of responses. Anything I say here is just musings. Hadn't realised they were novel or unconventional. It seems to me that some posters think they have a more complete knowledge and understanding of Gaelic than they do, so they assert that I am wrong. I try not to say anyone is wrong, and hope I have not done so here. I love the language, it fascinates me, and I would encourage others to learn it.

OP posts:

HerMammy · 29/12/2020 13:54

I have DC with Scottish Gaelic names, (Scottish Gaelic speaking family)one which is Eilidh, I have cringed at versions I’ve seen, the worst being Ayley;they admit they’d heard the name but didn’t know how to spell it 🙄
Personally I think it’s best to name DC within your culture/heritage.

LizzieAnt · 29/12/2020 13:49

Unfortunately, using the fada can sometimes be a problem within Ireland too @mathanxiety.

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/people-have-no-absolute-right-to-fadas-in-names-watchdog-finds-1.3852465?mode=amp

Gooseysgirl · 29/12/2020 08:20

@mathanxiety I didn't realise this until my daughter's UK passport came back with her middle name incorrectly spelled Maire instead of Máire. It massively winds me up!!!

Descant · 29/12/2020 06:09

@mathanxiety

Sadly, UK passports don't feature diacritical marks. It's discriminatory and gives the lie to claims of being an inclusive society.

In fairness, I think I remember when Irish passports started allowing fadas. And last time I booked an Aer Lingus flight (it’s been a while), it didn’t accept them. Some HSE forms used not to accept them either.

mathanxiety · 29/12/2020 05:56

Sadly, UK passports don't feature diacritical marks. It's discriminatory and gives the lie to claims of being an inclusive society.

Descant · 29/12/2020 05:52

If you’re physically completing a form via writing or typing, obviously include fadas, though sometimes, filling in online forms, they won’t ‘accept’ a character with a fada, so you omit. No more than mildly irritating.

fairytimes · 29/12/2020 05:47

Passports, birth certificates, bank paperwork. I am absolutely clueless about this so just thought I would ask, maybe I'm just overthinking it

Descant · 29/12/2020 05:38

@fairytimes

How do fadas work on documents and general paperwork? Is it too troublesome? I am really loving Róisín but will being out of Ireland (in the UK) make this a nightmare with paperwork?

What kind of paperwork are you thinking of?

mathanxiety · 29/12/2020 05:26

You can download a keyboard with them or use ctrl commands.

fairytimes · 29/12/2020 05:24

How do fadas work on documents and general paperwork? Is it too troublesome? I am really loving Róisín but will being out of Ireland (in the UK) make this a nightmare with paperwork?

nimbuscloud · 24/12/2020 23:39

I have a Róisín. The fadas are very important to her.

SacreBleeeurgh · 24/12/2020 23:32

[quote florascotia2]In Scotland in 2019:

Alasdair 23
Allistair 17
Alastair 6
Alisdair 2
Allister 1

From Scottish government website 2019:
www.nrscotland.gov.uk/statistics-and-data/statistics/statistics-by-theme/vital-events/names/babies-first-names/babies-first-names-2019/list-of-data-tables[/quote]
That may well be the case - I was speaking, as stated, from my own experience - Facebook friends list alone reveals 8 Alistairs, 3 Alastairs and only one Alasdair. I suspect there is a degree of regional variation too - mine will be predominantly north east and south east Scotland, fewer from the west coast or highlands... More than willing to be wrong on a statistical basis!

tabulahrasa · 24/12/2020 12:32

It’ll be the same word tbh, just spelled Keir has become a name and ciar hasn’t.

What’s a word or a name is a bit arbitrary really, I mean, precious stones - lots of names, precious metals, nope, may and June are fine, August sometimes, September, no, that’s where we stop, lol

WaxOnFeckOff · 24/12/2020 12:23

Similar meaning to Keir then anyway which is swarthy/dark etc. He was a very swarthy baby, blond toddler and now dark again so I guess it suits.

It's just so much easier to find things out now than it was back then.

Thank you

tabulahrasa · 24/12/2020 12:17

“My view would be that it's the original form of Ciaran“

It’s not, Ciar is dark/black, the little isn’t there to mean a little Ciar or Ciar Jr it’s what changes it to little dark one rather than just...dark...

WaxOnFeckOff · 24/12/2020 08:54

Question for all you knowledgeable folks. Internet wasn't really around when naming our DC and poor DS2 didn't have a name for nearly 2 weeks. Anyway we put our favourites on a list and passed it back and forward until we were left with 2, Ciaran and Keir, the latter being my choice. I understand that the "an" means little and on that basis (he wasn't likely to be little and wasn't a "junior") I got my way, but DH wanted the "Scottish" version so spelt it Ciar. I'd overruled him when wanting to use Creagh instead of Craig previously so agreed.

When I returned to work, a native gaelic speaker from the Western Isles told me that whilst it's a word, it would never be used as a name and I think it's probably more Irish if it is anything.

My view would be that it's the original form of Ciaran so is possibly Irish gaelic or just made up, anyone able to clarify?

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 24/12/2020 07:21

Well that's a sad reflection on your country or on your expectation of your country. Do people also not manage an umlaut or an accent for German or French names? It comes across badly tbh. I teach many children of different nationalities and make a point of getting their names correct and apologising until I do. Surely most people feel the same and use the fada or other understanding it is part of the name, not an extra, and that is the appropriate thing to do. It's a pity when you wanted to include an Irish name that you now don't have a Róisín at all.. Such a lovely name too. Maybe a name without a fada would have suited better.

Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies · 24/12/2020 05:19

@LongPauseNoAnswer

Róisín - Row - sheen Roisin - Roy-sin

The fada changes the pronunciation entirely. It’s frankly insulting that you use the name and can’t even learn the correct term for the “squiggles”

Same with Seán. Seán is the name, sean is the world for old.

If you read my original comment, you’ll see that, unlike the OP, I understand the need for the fada. Yes I made the squiggles comment, but I was pointing out that I was being a bit of an idiot - particularly when I said it to someone who’d been to a Gaelic speaking school.

I am not a Gaelic speaker, but my dh’s heritage is very important to him So we chose Irish middle names to reflect this. However, in this country, adding the fada would be complicated... so we didn’t. FWIW my Gaelic speaking friend also has a Roisin - which is how the conversation came up in the first place - who also doesn’t use the fada for the same reason.