Enola for DD?

Not firing on all cylinders now.

Glad the thread has calmed down a bit!

Alexa yes I'm sure we are on same page so now it goes into a conversation hopefully!

I'm not a historian. In fact I hated history at school, because of my teachers probably. And because I have a poor memory.

Anyway this bit.

'That is self evident. However, I think the two are indivisible. We cannot properly understand what is going on in Syria or many other conflict zones right now without understanding the historical context, and we cannot respond appropriately if we do not understand. That is why history is important in my view.'

The respond appropriately thing bothers me. I really am shit at history and that but my understanding is that our interference in areas we didn't know about. Has either caused or exacerbated problems.

And when I say 'our' I suppose I mean the West generally including the USA.

Every time we step in we seem to cause more problems than were there before. I know it's way more complicated than that.

And the whole WW2 thing bothers me. Yes it was awful. Yes what the Nazis did was horrendous. I went to the Berlin museum 'topography of terror' last year on the place where the SS & Gestapo HQ were. It was just so affecting. Had to leave TBH.

But do we learn? No. Even in Europe. A poster here says it's more important to know about Hiroshima than Srebrenica or Syria. I just don't get that. Srebrenica was recent. Ethnic cleansing. Mass murder. Rape as a weapon of war. In Europe. In the 90s. So 'we' learnt nothing. Ethnic cleansing of the rohingya people. Mass murder. Torture. Villages burnt. Rape.

But apparently it's really important to know all about Ww2. More important than knowing about stuff happening now. Because only by understanding WW2 will we be able to stop it happening again...

Bothers me, this attitude. It really does.

'There are 6.2 million people, including 2.5 million children, displaced within Syria, the biggest internally displaced population in the World. The pace of displacement remains relentless. Well over 1.8 million people have been displaced in 2017, many for the second or third time.'.

This is happening NOW. Right now.

And all other sorts of major problems. All over the world.

You're absolutely right. As it happens, I work with the victims of some of these "major problems", including the humanitarian crisis in Syria. I totally agree that we should be much more worried about what is happening in the world right now than what happened in the past. That is self evident. However, I think the two are indivisible. We cannot properly understand what is going on in Syria or many other conflict zones right now without understanding the historical context, and we cannot respond appropriately if we do not understand. That is why history is important in my view.

I agree with a lot of what you've written though.I definitely support the suggestion of looking at a wider range of news channels etc. What we get fed through the British media is very narrow. We are also in absolute agreement about the attack on Hiroshima being off the scale awful.

Far too much like Ebola

Getting a strong urge to listen to OMD now.

Enola Gay is a brilliant song.

I agree with nicegerbil

I think it’s much worse that someone knows about the role of the Enola Gay yet thinks that was OK than hadn’t heard of the Enola Gay or what it was known for!

First thought was Enola Gay...then my phone autocorrected it to Ebola...

Yeah, I wouldn't!

People that dont know about Enola Gay should be seriously embarrassed....educate yourselves! Read!

I'm stunned.

Hiroshima -been there. Spent times learning about it. History and reporting forgets Hiroshima was a HUGE military headquarters. But whether the bomb was right or wrong -or saved lives in the long run or was morally, ethically or legally acceptable-is still up for huge discussions. Some people say it was necessary. Some people say it wasn't. Some people say it wasn't -Japan was surrendering............. some people say two bombs because US Navy, Army etc each wanted their own bomb and so on -this is the discussion of history and evaulation of the rights and wrongs of the past.

6th August this year was the 75th anniversary of Hiroshima! It was all over the news, for heaven's sake!

This is actually a prime example of the problem with the modern world. As I said previously, I love History, did Higher History at school and still read history books and watch history on BBC4. If asked I could have worked out this year was the 75th anniversary. But I never watch the TV news any more and don't read a newspaper (grew up doing both). I usually get my news from Radio 4 as I drive to and from work. But that's not happening this year. So I did actually miss all the coverage.

Having said that I'm not so interested in the popular representation of WW2 and in August I was deep in my David Olusoga obsession and watching all his back catalogue of history programmes. So ask me about slave ownership in the UK 200 years ago and I'm fine.

Oh, and as for studying WW2 at school, we did a bit but in Scotland half the Higher topics were not Scottish (or indeed British) so I know lots about the Reformation (Luther and Calvin, not Henry VIII) and the Russian Revolution (and the impact of WW1 on that). I keep telling the DC their English school history is very parochial although with foreign grandparents they are more aware of that than many children. I do think the English syllabus should spend more time on the Empire and the slave trade and less on the 'greats' of English history.

I don’t think what happened then is comparable to anything else before or since though. It has shaped the modern world. It’s not like not knowing the ins and outs of Sbrenica or Syria.

Couple of people on this thread.

Debatable if atrocity. Means to an end.

Can't be arsed to search tbh.

For those of you who argue that using nuclear weapons is not a fundamental atrocity.

Who is?

Sorry monster post meant xposts.

Once upon a time. The 'lesson' of the Nazis in terms of mass murder/ ethnic cleansing has not been learnt. At all.

The fact that nuclear bombs have only been deployed on two occasions, by the same country, and never since, says something

There have been wars since. The original 5 allowed nukes by international agreement are not the only ones. Plenty of countries have nukes. And are fighting. Including plenty of really dodgy regimes. And no one has done this again. No one.

Because it's an atrocity. It's too much. It's just of the scale.

For those of you who argue that using nuclear weapons is not a fundamental atrocity.

What does the world look like, if all of the regimes around the world who have them, start using them.

Is it really, not an atrocity. Not extreme. Not just off the scale.

'6th August this year was the 75th anniversary of Hiroshima! It was all over the news, for heaven's sake!'

This year!

I watch BBC news, C4 news and al Jazeera. Dip in and out of sky 24 hour rolling and also the 24 hour rolling French channel in English, forget it's name.

I missed that. Honestly. I don't remember that at all.

It was all covid on the mainstream UK news pretty much? They weren't even talking Brexit.

Which is why I started watching Al Jazeera etc tbh.

Syria for example has not gone away.

UN refugee agency:

'There are 6.2 million people, including 2.5 million children, displaced within Syria, the biggest internally displaced population in the World. The pace of displacement remains relentless. Well over 1.8 million people have been displaced in 2017, many for the second or third time.'.

This is happening NOW. Right now.

And all other sorts of major problems. All over the world.

But yes. Let's express horror at people not knowing the ins and outs of Hiroshima, have little to say to the people who said on this thread that nuking civilians is not necessarily an atrocity, pontificate about how if you don't know about Ww2 then all is lost... While ignoring that mass murder and ethnic cleansing in happening right now in the world and oh look! Knowing what the plane was called has somehow failed to stop it.

To those who haven't heard of it, that's fine. Now you have, you can Google. Maybe watch Al Jazeera for a more global news than covid covid Brexit. If you want. Up to you.

For those of you who prefer to be a dick to people who haven't come across xyz. I dunno. There will be stuff you haven't come across. Stuff that is happening now in some corner of the globe. Would you appreciate someone from a different part of the world saying oh,! Fuck. You don't know about X. Wow. Where have you been?

And to end on a South park note. Nukes are bad mmmkay. Like really fucking awful. And to the two people who are like, weeelll whatever. Have a think. Have a think about why there is a nuclear proliferation treaty (ignored by some). Have a think about why the most aggressive regimes on the planet have NOT used their nukes.

Anyway. Essay. Sorry.

To OP. Probably think of a different name

But would you agree that we should try to inform ourselves as a society? To try to stop things happening again? If that’s possible

FGS can we stop with this.

Seriously.

It's way more important to say. Ok. It was an important event. Here's a link. Read up on it.

This is getting on my tits now.

We have had, I think two, posters say that you know the USA nuking all those civilians was a means to an end. Whether it was an atrocity is... Weellll. Up to the individual really... Etc.

Why not take them to task?

Rather than people who say, well I didn't know this. Now is a time to say >>> here's the info. And hope they don't read it all and come out the other side and say. Well I mean, it's certainly debatable whether dropping nukes on civilians is really an atrocity...

The focus on this thread is so weird. Insular. Unpleasant.

I vaguely know a nuclear bomb was dropped on Hiroshima

Vaguely? Wow.

I vaguely know a nuclear bomb was dropped on Hiroshima

Vaguely?

Vaguely?!

6th August this year was the 75th anniversary of Hiroshima! It was all over the news, for heaven's sake!

How did you manage to miss that?

My grandparents both left school at 14, very poor backgrounds, lived in a council house all their lives. They had curiosity about history and my grandmother in particular could tell you all about past centuries (she was a VERY avid user of her library ticket).

She would have been the first to say trying to let people know about history is important. It really does matter.

We don’t say ‘let’s not bother to explain back to sleep for infant health’, ‘let’s not keep emphasising to kids that racism is very wrong’, ‘let’s not bother encouraging people to vote’.

Similarly, children need to know about this and other important very recent historical facts, which is why Hiroshima should be taught in schools. We certainly were taught it.

In my work we have to make what we write understandable to the majority of people. The fact is that a very very large number of people in the UK are functionally illiterate. And in countries similar to the UK.

That is clearly not the case for anyone posting on MN but this stuff about people but knowing xyz is out of line.

People have different educations, interests, families etc. If someone doesn't know X then going 'omfg that's just unbelievable' may feel satisfying but it's not helpful. The helpful thing to say is, well it was a thing, here's what to Google. Have a read.

There is no shame in not knowing stuff that you haven't come across FGS.

Or that is not your thing.

I think having read a lot of threads on here that the old adage of history being written by the winners is v true and why is the second world war always the focus.

Leopold of Belgium. Heard of him? In the Congo. Estimates vary. Between 1 and 15 million people killed. Certainly millions mutilated.

'All blacks saw this man as the devil of the Equator ... From all the bodies killed in the field, you had to cut off the hands. He wanted to see the number of hands cut off by each soldier, who had to bring them in baskets ... A village which refused to provide rubber would be completely swept clean. As a young man, I saw [Fiévez's] soldier Molili, then guarding the village of Boyeka, take a net, put ten arrested natives in it, attach big stones to the net, and make it tumble into the river ... Rubber causes these torments; that's why we no longer want to hear its name spoken. Soldiers made young men kill or rape their own mothers and sisters.'

1885 to 1908. Not long ago really.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State

And also, why do numbers count so much? If a country of a million people have 100000 killed. Is that really less bad than a country of 500,000 having a similar percentage killed?

Srebtenica
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

My friend at school was from Bosnia. She and her family knew what was happening. The news played it down. Europe, paused. Waited. Prevaricated.
So much for the lessons learned from the Nazis, this can never happen again.
It did. And Europe didn't intervene.

And so on and so on.

The Rwandan genocide.

What has gone on in Burma. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_people
More than 1 million refugees. Ethnicity cleansing.

And so on and so on.

The human race doesn't learn.
These things go on and on.

Slating people for not knowing xyz... There is so much to know.

I'm not even interested in history tbh. Or politics. I studied physics. Which is why I have such strong views about nuclear weapons.

No one can no everything. No one is interested in everything. And that's ok.

I find the focus on the 2nd world war with everything over here. Short sighted and somehow. Being used for political purposes.

...

And that's how your start a bunfight on a baby thread I suppose.

It's what I think though.

Basically op, to return to your question, this name is likely to provoke strong feelings in some!

There's a thread about Enola over on /r/namenerds as well. An odd coincidence!