In Scotland Wales and Ireland (UK bit)

This is very interesting because whilst I had always known that a lot of the words we use have their origins in Scotland, it didn't occur to me that the sentence structures might come from there too.

A lot of those Scots words and sentence structures are very prevalent in North East N Ireland too, brought by settlers all those hundreds of years ago. Eg 'Wean' is very common here, and it wouldn't so much be seen as a class thing as a town vs country thing. And people are forever saying things like 'my hair needs cutting badly' instead of 'I badly need my hair cut'. Which always leads someone to reply 'no, your hair needs cut well...'

Scots is like what Robert Burns wrote

Jeez, my English is pretty bad today.....

I grew up in Edinburgh and now live in Glasgow. Each city has its posh bits and sink estates - just like anywhere. Historically though Glasgow has had more heavy industry like shipbuilding and engineering, whereas Edinburgh has been more about financial services and banking. There is the same sort of rivalry you'd find between Liverpool and Manchester.

I have no problem with kids at school learning Burns poetry in Scots dialect. Poems like Tam o'Shanter are world class. Also contains some of my favourite lines of poetry:

"But pleasures are like poppies spread,
You seize the flower, its bloom is shed;
Or like the snow falls in the river,
A moment white--then melts for ever; "

(And that is not Scots in any way, shape or form. It's English). I do agree that there is a definite class element to some Scottish words. I was brought up NEVER to say weans or bairns, and to speak properly. We live in a fairly well-to-do area and you hear expressions and words like minging, dreich, fankle, numpty or scunner all the time. But I never hear about someone "cleanin' the windaes", you'd clean the windows. Some of the words claimed as Scots words aren't really, they're just English words spoken in an exaggerated accent.

In response to an earlier poster, there is Gaelic medium education in Glasgow from nursery through to the end of secondary (i.e. age 18).

Edinburgh is broadly seen as being posh.
Glasgow is broadly seen as being working class.

Each thinks they're the bees knees and the other comes a poor second.

That's about the size of it!

FrancisCrawford give us the gist of the whole Edinburgh vs Glasgow thing.
This thread has become so interesting!

Thank you DrPiggle for the explanation on Holland/The Netherlands!

Cloeycat, neither is a dialect, both are languages and derived from different sources/language groups.

Scottish Gaelic is a language of the sub-group Goidelic, which is a sub-group of the Insular Celtic group.

Scots is a language of the sub-group Anglic, which is a sub-group of the Anglo-Frisian group, which is part of the West Germanic group. Scots is recognised as a language by every political body that has any say in Scotland including Westminster and th EU, as well as by linguists and historians.

On the name front, they affected each other because of the way names were adapted back and forth. For example the old Scots form of Janet was Jonat. This was adapted into Gaelic as Seònaid or Deònaid, then adapted back to Scots as Shona or Deona.

'Scots is dialect. The Scottish government are hell bent on getting Scots recognised as a different language because it suits their political agenda'

I've never really understood the idea that Scots is a separate language. Although I generally keep that to myself in order not to offend.

Interesting I never knew there was two languages spoken in Scotland- as well as English.

In school I think we were told that Manx, Scottish, Ulster Irish and Munster Irish were all dialects of Gaelic and therefore reasonably similar when spoken which has in fairness been my experience when speaking to Scottish people in Gaelic.

Scots and Gaelic are completely separate.

Scottish Gaelic is more similar to Irish. If you have never been exposed to any Gaelic/Irish you wouldn't be able to understand anything. It's as different to English as German or Greek.

Scots is dialect. The Scottish government are hell bent on getting Scots recognised as a different language because it suits their political agenda that Scottish people are completely differnet from the rest of the UK and should therefore be independent.

Scots is like what Robert Burns wrote. Yes there are different words and different expressions for some things but it's still basically English. Like the first two lines of Burns' "To A Mouse":

Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!

Now you might not know what "sleekit" or "tim'rous" means, but you'd recognise that it's still basically English.

Horatio is there two Dialects spoken in Scotland, Gaelic and Scots or is it one Dialect which an anglicized name (scots) and the Gaelic name (Gaelic)?

I've always found when listening to Scottish people speaking their Gaelic I've understood most of it but written down its so different from Irish I only pick up every few words unless I really concentrate. I find the correlation between all the dialects really interesting.

As far as the Holland/Netherlands thing goes....

Holland is indeed a region in The Netherlands. The Netherlands is split into twelve provinces, two of which are Zuid-Holland and Noord-Holland (South and North Holland). Historically, Holland was just one province that was split up to become the two. The provinces are a political and administrative subdivision, rooted in a long history. The idea that it has something to do with the land being reclaimed made me laugh.

In the past, Holland was always where the bulk of the political and economic power was located, so that's part of the reason why Holland and The Netherlands became synonymous. Actually, the centre of politics (The Hague) and the capital (Amsterdam) are still located in Holland, as is much else.

Of course, the history behind it is a lot more complicated than that, but this is probably not the place to go into it.

As a rule of thumb, most people from the non-Holland provinces prefer not to refer to the country as Holland, but I don't think I've ever met anyone who gets seriously offended when non-Dutch people use it. And Holland is often used abroad as it's easier, even by those who are technically not from there.

Without getting tangled in the Irish geo-political situation....

We are in Glasgow. Many of the parents at my children's school are Scottish, but few are Gaelic speaking. We also have children from lots of other parts of the world. Some of the kids have the same "English" names that you'd find anywhere in the UK - Sophie, Hannah, Lucy, Katie, James, Thomas, William etc. There are lots of Scottish names which are recognisably Scottish, but easy to pronounce and understand for everyone - Rory, Innes, Blair, Fraser, Iona, Isla, Euan, Fergus, Gregor, Ross etc.

There is only one child I can think of who is Ruaraidh rather than Rory, but he pronounces his name Roo-Ree rather than Roh-Ree. We haven't any Ceiteidh instead of Katie or Ciorstaidh instead of Kirsty.

This thread is really interesting. I'm Welsh (and a fluent Welsh speaker) but I know embarrassingly little about the languages of Scotland or Ireland.

Just catching up with this thread today, and glad to see everyone is friends again!

Cloeycat Scots Gaelic isn't a good term as it combines the name of the Scots language (Anglic) with the Gaelic language (Celtic). It's most correct to say Scottish Gaelic, although it is genenally just shortened to Gaelic. Irish Gaelic is usually just called Irish, and Manx Gaelic is generally just called Manx.

OP, like Irish, mh and bh become a v sound in Scottish Gaelic, although depending on where they occurs in a word they can also be silent.

Gaelic isn't compulsory in lowland Scottish schools, but it's available as an option but it depends on availability, i.e. whether the school has as Gaelic speaking teacher. Separate qualifications are available in Gaelic for native speakers and learners. There are Gaelic-medium nurseries in Glasgow and Edinburgh, but I'm not sure about schools they can attend once they reach the age of 5. Perhaps someone else knows? There are Gaelic-medium schools in the more traditional Gaelic-speaking areas.

Scots doesn't get the same recognition or funding as Gaelic so is used far less in schools. In fact it was practically non-existent until recently, apart from learning a bit of Burns poetry every January, however it seems to be creeping back into use in schools, as a form of literature.

Glad you enjoyed the language link!

There's a big push for Scots in Scottish schools. The language is called Scots, not Scottish. Children's books are available in Scots, for example Geordie's Minging Medicine (George's Marvellous Medicine).

There are Gaelic medium schools. Gaelic is also evolving and the traditional score numeric system is likely to go within a generation.

It's compulsory in all Irish schools and yes there are Irish speaking schools where everything is taught through Irish.