In Scotland Wales and Ireland (UK bit)

Although I do get a bit irked by 'British Isles'.

I don't get irritated by the Southern Ireland thing. It's logical even if it's incorrect so I can't get annoyed by it. I decided if I can't understand the difference between Holland and the Netherlands and when to say which, I can't get annoyed by a British person saying 'Southern Ireland'.

I suppose it must be confusing, Wooftweet, if the island is called Ireland (as established by PP) but also one of the countries on it is called Ireland. I personally don't refer to the island at all, so when I say 'Ireland I mean the republic thereof, and Northern Ireland is exactly that (though I wish it were easier to say. Why can't you donate the other counties to them so we can call it Ulster?).

Every time I hear Southern Ireland, which is a lot, as I work with some British people, I want to tell them that Southern Ireland isn't a country.
Isn't the most northerly part of Ireland, Malin Head, actually in Donegal which is in the "Republic"? So Southern Ireland really doesn't make any sense.
Is it just that it's easier to think of the other part of the island to Northern Ireland must be" Southern Ireland" a bit like North Korea and South Korea.
Next time I hear it, I may fling a map at them.

And the internet! I forgot to add that after radio, film and TV came the influence of the internet...

Hi florascotia,

I have to admit to generalising massively for this post, so apologies for the use of the term "their own culture". What I meant by that is that, from the 20th century in particular, people across the world have had much greater access to names from other cultures/countries via the advent of radio, film, then TV (I exclude biblical and classical names from this, because as you rightly point out, these names were already widely known and used across most of Europe, the Americas and the Middle East), and this led to a larger name pool from which to choose. Why call your child boring old Mairi when she could be the exotic La-a? (joke)

My disseration did indeed point out that the Latinisation and Anglicisation of names did happen, and was not a clear guide to the name actually used, e.g. Maria in the records could have been a girl called Maria, Mary, or Mairi, but this appears to be less and less likely after statutory registration in 1855, as Scotland was more and more anglified and a lot of the old names (particularly Scots names) were lost.

But also, an "English" name did not necessarily mean an English pronunciation. For example, the name Daniel was pronounced 'Day-nell' in Scots, though the spelling was the same, so it is very hard to establish how many of the 560 boys with this name in 1875 pronounced it the Scots way and how many pronounced it the English way. For my dissertation I went by the assumption they were all pronounced the English way (as I had no proof to the contrary) however I acknowledged that some would be pronounced the Scots way, and if that were the case then that would make the decrease in Scottish usage even more marked.

The OPRs give a greater insight into the pronuncitations used as they tended to be more phonetic, so the names as spoken have been preserved to a degree. They are just currently inaccessible to the average parent which is a great pity. As I said, there are some lovely names which haven't seen daylight for 200+ years.

In Ireland the ancient Irish names only really came into vogue in the late 1960s. Until then there was a small pool of (saints') names that people gave their children.

Very sorry for typos. Writing too quickly!!

Hang on a minute, Horatio. I've not read your dissertation, though it sounds as if it would be very interesting indeed. I honestly don't wish to be critical, but what really bothers me, however, is the use of phrases such as 'their own culture'.

Just which culture do you mean? I've looked at Scottish eccelsiatical and government records for my own Gaelic-speaking Highland family way back into the 1700s, and what some people might consider 'traditional' Scottish names are markedly absent - almost uniformly - throughout the records.

My great grandparents and grandparents belonged to generations where they were beaten for using Gaelic at school. They deeply admired acaemic education which was mostly in English or, exceptionally, in Latin. They were not fluent in eaither, though they hoped their children would be. They devotely read the Bible (or had it forcibly preached at them), so were very familiar with Biblical names - and they used them, encouraged by Catholic priests or Protestant Ministers. They also admired what little they understood of European Classical education - hence the popularity of names such as Hector and Alexander. In that context, which, please, is 'their own culture'? It's romantic nonsense to think that the Gaelic Highlands were untouched by outside influences until the 1850s. I'm NOT saying that you think this - I haven't read your dissertation - but phrases such as 'their own culture' raise big questions in my mind.

These people were not daft. Their lives were very tough. They wished better for their children. In modern terms, they were aspirational. So it's fair to suggest that they gave their offspring names that they hoped would help them fit in. Or that might make them seem (admirably) better-"educated" in the eyes of their neighbours.

One final point. From the earliest times, Church records, and then civil registration records, were compiled by an educated elite. They wrote in either Latin or (post 1840s (first reliable census) or 1855 (civil registration) ) English. Who knows how much they 'tidied up' the language (and the names) of the poor people whose lives they recorded? In the case or my own researches, I genuinely do not know. But perhaps you address this issue in your dissertation?

Whoopee! At last, a chance to use some of the data I gathered for my degree!

I can't comment for Wales and Northern Ireland, but I did my dissertation on Scottish names so I can give you a precise answer for Scotland. Basically, the use of Scottish names in Scotland has been visibly in decline for as long as accurate birth records are available (c.1850), and now account for a very tiny amount of names used.

In 1850, 28.2% of boy names and 15.7% of girl names used were Scottish, but by 2013 (when I did the disseration), these figures had reduced to 11.3%for boys and only 6.7% for girls.

This is mostly attirbutable to the size of the names pools, as the actual number of Scottish names in use has increased over the same period, however other names increased even more, reducing the Scottish percentage.

E.g. In 1850 there were a total of 53 Scottish boy names used and 310 'other' names. In 2013, the Scottish names in use had increased to 386 but the 'other' names had increased to 3,024.

So basically, as more and more names become available to choose from, fewer people are likely to choose names from their own culture. Without interviewing parents directly it's impossible to say whether Scots who do choose Scottish names do so for patriotic reasons, or just because they like them, and there is reason to believe that a lot of people don't even know which names are Scottish and which aren't. There are certainly hundreds of lovely Scottish names that became "anglicised" and so fell completely out of use, but I'm not sure how well used they would be even if people knew of them. I suspect the exotic attraction of something different will always trump them.

quietly tiptoes back to nerds' corner

@ this thread!

jazz re your question about the name Aisling. Yes it should always be pronounced ashling

'I can never remember whether it's northern ireland or southern Ireland which comes under UK - Irish history is something I was never taught at school'

Blows my mind that some British adults don't know this!

If you have a look at the 'top 100' names in Scotland/England/Wales/NI you'll be able to see what the common choices are. I'm in Scotland and my son has a Scottish middle name and there are a lot of Scottish names around but nothing unusual eg Isla, Alasdair, Lewis, Harris that kind of thing.

re Iain - should be Gaelic, obvs. Sorry for bad typing.

Just FWIW Elspeth is not the Gaelic version of Elizabeth. That is Elasaid.

Iain is the Gelic version of John.

Seamas is the Gaelic version of James. Hamish is the vocative case - used only when addressing a person directly.

Im scottish with a french origin name Dds have a french and a biblical name . Names are not localised but you will get lots of Welsh names in wales Scottish names in Scotland and depending anglasised (sp) and irish names in Northern ireland

Not a clue what you are on about i wanted to by pass thread but its bugging me what you want to know anybody enlighten me?

I was born in Wales to English and Welsh parents and I have an Italian/German first name and Welsh middle name If that helps. But I do reiterate what others are saying - you need to know these things, yes it should be taught in schools and no it's not been a compulsory - possibly ever - in UK schools, probably for political reasons more than anything else. Choose a name you like regardless of where you live.

I know Olwens and Bethans with no Welsh connection. Also Evans, Ewans (though that's Scottish I know).

I'm in the non UK bit of Ireland, don't worry, I knew you'd get a rap on the knuckles for that.

I think any name Welsh, Irish, Scottish should be fair game anywhere in the Uk. After all the distances between the countries are minute when you think of say America and how vast it is, and how to them 150 miles is down the road culturally. And we're like, ooh can I call her Bethan when I live in Herefordshire?

Yes a mhúinteoir

The constitution is law - presumably you also agree that the common good cannot be achieved without a woman's life in the home?

The constitution is law, whether you agree with it or not Ireland is the correct name of the state.

If you choose to call it another that's up to you, but you shouldn't tell people that that is the name of the country when it simply isn't.

The constitution is a political document, not the word of God.

I happen to think that article should have been amended in 1998 along with Arts 2 & 3.

Using Ireland to refer to the Republic of Ireland is pretty common, but can be viewed as partitionist.