Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Baby names

Find baby name inspiration and advice on the Mumsnet Baby Names forum.

American looking for UK Answers

83 replies

EmilyRoo · 16/03/2012 14:23

Hi,

I'm changing my name (from Emily-perfectly good name but there are 4 other on my floor) and I am looking for UK input on some names I am considering, and would also like suggestions for other names in a similar vein. I'm looking for a longer, elegant and unusual name. I plan on relocating to England in a few years and would like to know how these names are perceived there, if possible.

Cordelia
Rowena
Clementine (my favorite right now)
Penelope

Any more suggestions would be lovely!

-Emily

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
lottiegb · 20/03/2012 07:21

Ok, well Esme is 'Ez Me' not May, emphasis on first syllable, and fits the nice, uncommon but unpretentious criteria. Jemima is nice and not overused. If you really like Clementine, do it, just be prepared for irritating people to sing at you.

Your chosen professions are utterly middle class in the middle to upper range (but also likely to be a great example of the 'poor but posh' paradox, in the early years at least! You'll aspire to Waitrose and the farmers' market but shop at Lidl and in charity shops - but I imagine the 'struggling artist' archetype might appeal to your romantic ideals, on the way to becoming a more established metropolitan bohemian?)

For that reason, you'll be surrounded by people from upper middle class backgrounds supported by their parents, with a few more 'ordinary' people doing multiple jobs to get by.

Arty professions are of course more liberal and flamboyant than average, so you can get away with more outlandish names. Also you'll be your own product, marketing-wise, so something memorable may be an advantage.

I feel we haven't fully illustrated the 'upper middle only / jolly hockey sticks' style we keep referring to. The names ragged's given you are 'working to mid-middle' (first list) and 'solidly middle' (Victoria etc). The sort of thing that would signal to me 'upper MC, probably private school' are Venetia, Fenella, Arabella, Portia, Sophia (until recently), also Sebastian and defnitely Peregrine and Persephone.

It gets confusing again though because upper MC / upper class use very nice, simple names too, like Lucy, Alice, Clare. Also because some very MC names become suddenly popular at all levels e.g. Olivia, Charlotte, Emily and finally... there is a category of more flamboyant name that can be either upper or lower end class-wise but is unlikely to be middle e.g. Talullah.

fedupofnamechanging · 20/03/2012 07:06

I think names are a lot more fluid now than they used to be, and some names are used across all classes (Elizabeth, Charlotte, Emily, Eleanor -Ellie is very popular, for example).

Within your list, Esme has become more popular recently (possibly because of the Twilight films), but is not common amongst women in their 20's. I like Jemima, from your list - I think of Jemima Khan. I do think you need to consider whether your new name will work in the USA, as well as here, because presumably you will return there at some point, if only for visits.

While some names are very upper class imo (Arabella, Camilla, Araminta), a lot of names you could choose and be any class. What I would add though, is that some names are seen as very 'chavvy',or would be quite 80's, which you would want to avoid. These names are ones like Kayleigh, Jamie-Leigh, Leanne, Deborah, Tracey, Sharon (I really like some of those names, but would never choose them because of negative connotations here).

I have probably offended loads of people with that list - apologies. I don't think the negative connotations are fair, only that they do exist. I got landed with the name Sarah, and there are thousands of us in our 30's!

EmilyRoo · 20/03/2012 01:48

Whew, good thing I'm outside it all [b]ragged[/b] because I'd never be able to keep that straight! I'm working towards becoming a creative director/editor in either film or the fashion industry, while writing novels and attempting to get them published.

Glad to be informed about the class thing, thanks for the overview! It's interesting, to say the least, partially because to an American it is mostly unfathomable.

Going back to my list, I'd welcome opinions on these;

Clementine
Rowena
Jemima (might be able to brave the syrup connotation!)
Esme (ez-may) -This one has bite, and fits me quite well, except it's not 3 syllables.

What sort of names would be mostly used by the MC then? I know the aristocracy generally goes traditional-classic, I mean those who are a rung below. :)

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 19/03/2012 18:31

The designation of 'posh' or 'jolly hockey sticks' is always 'posh in a negative way' if that is not the class of people to which you belong.

As an American, you will never belong in any part of British society. You will be the quintessential fish out of water, not because British people are unfriendly but because you will be 'hard to place', which means you will not have any identifying accent or attitude or vocabulary or look about you or style or taste in even little things, that all indicate where someone belongs in the British scheme of things.

If you intend to ditch Emily and pick something else, I would go for something that could sound American, because that is how you will be known anyway no matter how long you stay in the UK:

Emery
Emerson

lottiegb · 19/03/2012 14:41

ragged, yes I'm sure she would, I was offering an English interpretation of those characters.

Good overview. I'd differ only to say that plenty of people do define themselves as middle class quite happily and see this as normal and probably the majority, not aspirational. Also people do change class during their lifetime, typically in the baby boomer generation, moving from working class backgrounds, through education to skilled jobs and a middle class lifestyle. Many of them acknowledge this quite happily but, as you say, people do cling to their roots, or even their parents' roots in an absurd and confusing way and there is a lot of pride and inverted snobbery about being working class. Working class is traditionally manual labour, now unskilled or low-skilled work. Skilled work and definitely anything requiring a degree is middle class. 'The professions' (doctor, lawyer etc) form a small proportion of the middle to upper middle class.

Anyway, as an American with a degree and passport you'd definitely be middle class OP, as are the names you're suggesting. It's just that there are some names you mightn't hear outside the upper middle, privately educated stratum and whether you'd want to go for one of those might depend on where you'd be working and who you'd want to fit in with.

Bonsoir · 19/03/2012 13:58

Clementine is a lovely name and much the prettiest of the four in the OP.

ragged · 19/03/2012 13:58

Roseanne Barr in the TV show would call herself middle class, I promise. So would Fraser Crane (if Americanised enough). We don't have "working class". Poor - middle - rich are the American categories.

ragged · 19/03/2012 13:56

Class, haharhar.
Okay, in the USA "class" is linked to income (some Brits think this is very vulgar, but makes sense to me ). Most Americans (?85%) think of themselves as middle class. They aren't truly poor (not desperate) and they aren't filthy rich (probably wouldn't fly first class, or not very often, anyway). And you can change in your lifetime with changes in income, it's not set in stone from your childhood.

In England, class is about values, tastes, inherited wealth, & social position (certain professions). You keep the same class all your life regardless of changes in circumstances. Working class = people who have to work to make ends meet (not much ££ inherited), and "upper class" usually means links to the historic aristocracy (manor homes & titles), although you can be very poor and still be upper class. No aristocratic link and the best you can be is "middle class". Most British people describe themselves as working class. Katie Price who is filthy rich & an international celeb, John Prescott who was deputy Prime Minister, Sir Philip Greene who is filthy rich & manager of a huge empire of shops: these people are usually deemed working class, because of their humble origins, although it's fuzzy what class their children may belong to. Middle class is widely derided as over-educated & made neurotic by their social aspirations. Disowning your class origins is tantamount to leaving a religion: I kid you not. People are supposed to be proud of their class & want to stay in it (Edwardian values?).

But the perceptions are changing, there is a lot of modern debate about what does "class" mean in modern Britain.

By American standards, my household should qualify as middle or upper middle class. My English husband insists that we are working class because we don't have influential positions (like vicar, teacher or doctor).

I have lived here 20 years and I still struggle with it all.

lottiegb · 19/03/2012 11:10

Back to names, I'm going from those that are nice, uncommon but familiar from my generation, my other reference is babies, so not your generation.

I like the suggestions of Francesca, Juliette and Felicity. You could also have Natasha, Naomi, Saskia or maybe Mariah.

Clementine has not become popular, it's very unusual. Be aware that the names discussed on the baby names thread here tend towards the unusual, may be becoming more popular amongst a segment of the population but won't necessarily become common (though you never quite know which will. Chloe, Olivia and Isabel were nice but unusual in my generation). For example, Beatrice would appear to be becoming massively popular from comments here but has yet to enter the top 100.

lottiegb · 19/03/2012 10:58

If you really want to get into class you'll be here all week, there've been lots of threads before about what constitutes different classes, I'd suggest looking at those. Essentially we have a lot of historical and cultural baggage, so it's never as simple as how much you earn. As an American you're largely exempt from those judgements, take advantage of that!

The comments aren't really negative, just making sure you know. Some upper middle class / posh names can sound a little pretentious but you'd probably get away with it. As an American living here (and college educated) you'd be assumed to be middle class in our terms.

Can of worms as it is and against my own advice, I am happy to procrastinate for a moment more. I'm 38 so apologies for the age of the references:

Upper class is essentially aristocracy so no direct comparison but the families at the top of your political system, or descendants of the first pilgrims may be similar.

Frasier and Niles Crane and their associates are upper middle class. Martin Crane is working class, married into middle class. Daphne's family are working class.

All the Friends characters are middle, middle class, though Joey's background is working class and Rachel's family may be upper middle (or rich lower middle depending what her parents do and are like, can't remember).

Roseanne Barr's character in the Roseanne sitcom is classic working class.

EmilyRoo · 19/03/2012 01:52

You might be right about the barrister instead of barrista kerfuffle. Thanks for the information about the shops/lifestyles. Someone mentioned that the English middle class is different from American middle class, would anyone care to clarify? I've also seen some names described as jolly hockey sticks or posh, but in a negative way...can someone enlighten me as to names that would qualify as such, if they are to be avoided. (I apologize if this is a touchy subject, just want to be aware! I know this is more of a cultural question than names but it does tie in, really!)

OP posts:
colditz · 19/03/2012 01:19

Esmerelda

SodoffBaldrick · 19/03/2012 01:02

I should add, places like these aren't just shops; they're lifestyles. Wink

SodoffBaldrick · 19/03/2012 01:00

Basically, it is the embodiment of middle class, upper-middle at a pinch.

Waitrose is a mid-to-high-end supermarket, that has huge deli and wine sections, lots of specialty products, is a bit more expensive, and sells very little in the way of processed, pre-packaged, ready-to-eat foods. Their pot noddle shelf is tiny Wink and you (happily, natch) pay a bit more for ethically sourced fish and meat.

Boden is the middle class Mum label of choice. 'Easy' clothes, that are 'easy' to put together and 'easy' on the eye. They use the word 'fun', 'ditsy' and 'laidback/everyday' a lot when describing the prints.

Waitrose stocks Duchy Originals products which are organic products from the Prince of Wales' estates in Cornwall. Naice products for naice people - biscuits, shortbread, preserves, marmalade, etc...

These things are the epitome of comfy, cosy UK middle class-ness. I don't think any of them have changed too much since I left the UK.

Will most likely be a barista? Someone who makes espressos? Are you sure it didn't say Barrister? I don't imagine too many stereotypical Clementines logging the hours behind a Starbucks counter.

EmilyRoo · 18/03/2012 23:13

Also, I was messing about with the baby name finder, but can't really grasp what some of the connotations are. I typed in "Clementine" and got "shops at Waitrose/Dolce & Gabbana/Boden", eats "Duchy Originals", and will most likely be a "barista/estate agent". I understand the implications of Dolce & Gabbana but not the rest.

OP posts:
EmilyRoo · 18/03/2012 23:08

Thank (most) of you for the kind words. I'll allow myself to be naive until my next birthday, at which point I will shape up immediately. ;)

Philippa nn Pippa; I like it, except I know an unsavory Phil. But I do have a horse, so the meaning is nice!

Jemima sadly screams "syrup", it also has negative racial connotations especially in the South, since an Aunt Jemima became slang for a black nanny type. I do love it, though, so will keep it in mind!

I have considered Caroline, but a first cousin is called that already, and I'd feel awkward adopting it. Coraline would get misheard as Caroline, unfortunately, so that's out too.

When did Clementine become popular/widely used in the UK?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 18/03/2012 19:09

Or if you have any Irish heritage would you consider Emer (pr EE-mer)?

mathanxiety · 18/03/2012 19:07

Are you one of the four Emilys from DS's class? Or maybe you are the Emilie... Smile

The name really got a run for its money back in the early 90s.

I would go with Clementine or Rowena if you are determined to stick with your list, but I think you would be better off choosing a name that was popular in Britain back in the early 90s.

The name that sprang to my mind was Jemima, a perennial in the bottom of the lists. It doesn't say 'born recently' as Clementine or Rowena do. It doesn't say 'Brideshead Revisited' as Cordelia does, or lend itself to Penny as a nn as Penelope does.

You may have a reservation based on Aunt Jemima though.

There is Gemma too, not v popular in the US but fairly popular in Ireland and Britain.

fedupofnamechanging · 18/03/2012 17:16

Emily - I know a Peregrine and a Clementine Smile.

I quite like Caroline. I know you wanted something different to Emily, but perhaps Emilia/Amelia?

Hope you find something you love.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 18/03/2012 09:41

Can I suggest philippa. With pippa as a nn?

justhayley · 18/03/2012 09:35

Amilie or amilia

ragged · 18/03/2012 08:57

I think OP is a bit naive, but at 19, she's allowed :). Some in my family still think that all of England stop for cream scones & high tea at 4pm every day.

Victoria, Amelia, Alexandra, Catherine, Helena, Sophia, Rebecca, Elizabeth, all very English names for you OP, and not so posh as to be OTT.
Yet keep in mind they almost all instantly become nns: Vicky, Millie, Lexi, Kate, Soph, Becci, Lizzie!

As a child I changed my name from one of these long ones to a (unrelated) common one in the long lists above, no regrets :).

smokeandglitter · 18/03/2012 08:30

I thought she had a nice tone to her posts? Especially her last one, a little jokey feel, she was getting at the fact US think England's all small and romantic, not expecting us to be impressed. Nizlopi, it is easy to get the wrong idea of someone from words typed on a screen. Why don't we give her a chance? I'm sure OP is just innocently looking for opinions.

My mum gets called 'Roo' from Andrea (And I dont know too many Andrea's) :) I also like Emmeline and, as a suggestion, Esme.

nizlopi · 17/03/2012 22:05

Oh no, I agree, in fact, when I was 18 I changed my surname as I hated my birth name.

I just find the OP very childish and patronising. Especially wanting the little Englanders to be oh so impressed with her amazing idea's for this wonderfully unique name idea she has.

DustyDen · 17/03/2012 22:00

I disagree, nizlopi, I think that everyone has the right to name themselves whatever they choose. A dear friend of mine was given a name at birth that, when they reached eighteen, did not fit their self-image or their gender, and they changed it to something far more suitable. I know quite a few people who don't go by their birth names.

I hope you find something that suits, OP.