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Baby names

Find baby name inspiration and advice on the Mumsnet Baby Names forum.

Original poster

Amhlaoibh

138 replies

working9while5 · 08/10/2011 11:05

For a variety of reasons, if we have another boy we would like to give him this name.

It's pronounced Oh-lee-uv, and is the Irish version of Olaf. I am Irish and we have strong Norse connections, and this is a family name on my side.

However, clearly is it a NON RUNNER for a baby living in England, to be honest I doubt many Irish people can pronounce it.. so, we are trying to think of a way of incorporating it that will not lead to torture for any baby boy we have.

My granduncle Amhlaoibh had Humphrey as the English version of his name (back then, births had to be registered with an English name) and was called Uncle Free when the family spoke in English. Where they got Humphrey from Amhlaoibh I have no idea, but I'm not sure about it! Possibly thinking (randomly) James Amhlaoibh or Amhlaoibh James and we might do what my family did and call him James. It is common in both our families to have children known by their second name but have an alternative first name, so I have a nostalgia for this even though it makes sod all sense really!

Unless someone can think of a better alternative??

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SheCutOffTheirTails · 09/10/2011 19:28

I'm fascinated by the diphthong - to me (also Connemara) aoi is one simple sound.

How would you pronounce Aoife? Or aoibheann? Diphthong or no?

The only sound I couldn't convey easily in English was the broad l sound, and thinking about it, I wonder if that would give a little syllable and a half? In that to come out of that broad l into the narrow bh, there is a kind of forced second sound.

More Llee-iv than Lee-uv though, iyswim?

Either way, I really love it. It's great.

Although I think if the diphthong is very important to you, maybe don't use it.

In England it will be said Oh-leev. I would be fine with that, but if you're not I think you need to use it as a middle name.

It's like that with Caoilfhinn for me. Some people are OK with Caoilinn, even pronounced as keelan. But for me the lovely caoi sound that there is no English for, followed by lyin is crucial. And that's unrealistic. Most people won't say it that way, so I haven't used it. And won't.

Original poster
working9while5 · 09/10/2011 19:23

What do I mean it goes back six generations? Erm, that it goes back six generations. Spelt like that. It is an IRISH name. Oliver is the English version of the Norse name Olaf, btw. Is it "twattish in the extreme" to anglicise it? My father's family actually only had about 10 names in all that were passed from generation to generation from the early 18th century, with the first born always being called Dónal, and with Tadhg, Diarmuid and Padraig being other common names. My father was Dónal and his brothers have those names but sadly, due to family circumstances I have no intention of going into here, my father and his brothers do not speak. Amhlaoibh or however you want to write it was the name of my father's most beloved uncle. I love it as a name, you don't. I don't believe it would curse anyone and anyway, if you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that a) I don't think I will use it as a first name and b) I would probably call my child "Ollie" as a nickname if I used it here. Strange reaction on your part though.

OP posts:
Tyr · 09/10/2011 19:15

Judgemental, yes; irate, no. What do you mean it goes back six generations? Spelt like that? Add it as a middle name, then if you must. Don't curse a blameless child with it as a first name.

Original poster
working9while5 · 09/10/2011 19:08

And where are you from that you are calling it Gaelic? Where did I mention I was doing something "to be original"? I feel perhaps you are the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to being twattish.

OP posts:
Original poster
working9while5 · 09/10/2011 19:06

It is "twattish" in the extreme to use a name that goes back six generations in my family Tyr? A tad judgemental there, don't you think? Is there a particular reason you are so irate?

OP posts:
Tyr · 09/10/2011 19:03

I would pronounce the first syllable as "owl" but I think it is a foul name for a child. If you want to call him Olaf, do so although it is only marginally less foul.
I don't see why parents have to be original with names and the idea of putting a Norse name (which sounds fine in their language) into Gaelic is twattish in the extreme. All you are doing is giving the child a cross to bear in life.

Original poster
working9while5 · 09/10/2011 18:58

Math, I know all about decoding, dealing with dyslexia is a large part of my job! Still, Amhlaoibh is a challenge to someone who has learned to read English and I recognise this! For me, when it comes to pronunciation the first syllable isn't as important as the dipthong in the second, which it sounds like you don't have in Connemara (I can barely remember what these would sound like at this stage). So to match my mental representation of the word it has to be O-lee-uv/O-lee-iv (how you show that transition in the vowel is beyond me!) and an "Ow" would not.. so the spelling probably isn't as important

But I do see the broader issues here, having considered the Polish and Punjabi names I have learned to pronounce perfectly adequately without being able to speak either language.. why should I make concessions, in some ways? On the other hand, I do think kids can find it a PITA when their parents give them names that don't match their own phonology and my children will not have Irish accents or learn much Irish other than the "cúpla focail" so... plenty time to think on this some more, I guess!

Anyway, according to the Census, modern Irish names are more likely to be Hayleigh and Kaylee and Brayden than any of these!

OP posts:
SheCutOffTheirTails · 09/10/2011 18:50

At least the letters in most Irish names would net you a decent score in Scrabble.

mathanxiety · 09/10/2011 18:43

Working Decoding is only half the battle when learning to read English, which must look like ooh I don't know an appropriate analogy -- maybe a random arrangement of scrabble tiles to a lot of ESL students when you think about it? 1,100 different ways to spell 44 (or 46) different sounds...

Amhlaoibh is a gorgeous name imo (I would also pronounce it Owl-eev as Sayit does, as I speak Irish with a Connemara accent, and I would not try spelling it Olaoibh, as this would technically render it Oleeve) and as pointed out, no more complicated in terms of vowel combination/pronunciation or consonant pronunciation than Aoife or Niamh, names that are both becoming better known and their spellings accepted in Britain.

(Despite the ignorance and rudeness amply displayed on the Sorcha thread -- and it seems apparent here too, I believe most British people can actually understand that letters are pronounced differently in other languages.)

SheCutOffTheirTails · 09/10/2011 18:38

You don't appear to even understand what nationalism is, never mind "doing it". The idea that your halfwitted laughter would annoy anyone is amusing though.

HoneyPablo · 09/10/2011 18:17

ignorant thick racists
Where?

Booooooyhoo · 09/10/2011 17:55

you dont have to do nationalism to have a bit of sensitivity. you posted on a thread (unrelated to the one you refer to) posted by an irish person about irish names, encouraging people to go over and laugh about someone else who was irish, posting about an irish name. how is that necessary on this thread?

ithaka · 09/10/2011 17:44

I repeat, I don't do nationalism, especially when it leads to name calling....

I just can't engage with people who resort to insults. I prefer to laugh at them - it really winds them up Grin

Booooooyhoo · 09/10/2011 17:15

so now you want me to join in with the pointing and laughing? you dont see how posting here is insensitive? not going to acknowledge that at all?

SheCutOffTheirTails · 09/10/2011 17:08

I love when ignorant, thick racists accuse people who take offence at their casual insults of other cultures as being "chippy".

People who go around making snotty jibes about "foreign" languages and ways don't even get invited to parties.

This is where the party ends, I can't stand here listening to you and your racist friend.

ithaka · 09/10/2011 17:02

Booooyhoo - do look up the Sorcha thread - it is worth it Wink

I think it is the same 'silly irish person' (your words!) getting her knickers in a knot on that post as well, although I could be wrong.

Don't do nationalism myself, especially when it leads to name calling....

Booooooyhoo · 09/10/2011 16:37

you mightn't have poked the fun, but you did come on here to encourage others to go over to that thread to point and laugh at the silly irish person. cant you see how that's a bit insensitive considering who this thread was posted by and what it's about? (BTW i dont know the thread in question or what offence was taken.)

ithaka · 09/10/2011 16:34

I never poked fun at Irish names or Irish people - just some Irish people who make themselves seem silly by getting so het up over a minor joke (not even insult!) about the pronounciation/writing of a name.

I am Scots BTW, so could play the 'cruel English destroying our culture' card, but when you talk to me of nationality, language, religion I try to fly by those nets Smile

HoneyPablo · 09/10/2011 16:26

I know, my finger did hover over the post message button, but then, I thought, what the hell, and posted it anyway, in an I-give-up sort of way.

TheFallenMadonna · 09/10/2011 16:24

Unless the A spelling has a particular resonance for you (and I think you said that you weren't sure how your family spelled it to start with?), then the O spelling would be more accessible. If that matters. It might not...

Booooooyhoo · 09/10/2011 16:16

nice ithaka. come onto a thread posted by an irish person, about an irish name, encouraging people to go and poke fun at irish people and irish names. that's just lovely.

Booooooyhoo · 09/10/2011 16:14

and FWIW i think i understand SCOTT's 'chip' as you put it. the irish language was forcefully removed from so many generations of people in ireland by the english. native speakers feel very strongly that they should use their language and be proud of it and it hits a nerve when english people are once again belittling it and saying it looks like random letters.

ithaka · 09/10/2011 16:10

Look up the 'Sorcha' thread if you want a real chuckle about how chippy some Irish folks like to get over name prononounciation - some of them would start a row in an empty room!

Booooooyhoo · 09/10/2011 16:10

honey, why do you feel the need to use immature jibes? be satisfied that you can justify what you posted and leave it at that. posting silly comments like that just make you look petty and as though you aren't mature enough to have the discussion.

HoneyPablo · 09/10/2011 16:02

I bet you're a barrel of laughs at parties.

Would you like some ketchup to go with that chip?