to think that people who don't approve of parents who put their children in childcare should not work in a nursery..

Sometimes it's much easier to criticize others and child care sometimes families can not afford not to work I hate it when people criticize without having the full facts of life sometimes I just think it's down to nastiness of others its like my family friend who thinks she had it much worse in her life well maybe she did but life was also easier back then in the 1930s 1940s 1950s growing up with housing and jobs and income. She would criticise working mums who has jobs and children in child care I just think it's really wrong to criticize anyone who isnt known to her

I had a family friend when we was kids me my sister and brother was all put into child care when my mum worked she had to she had 4 jobs to cloth feed and have a roof over our heads my dad had a affair and it was my mum that had to provide for us. She got really really bad criticism from this person really bad saying that she wasnt there and was lazy mum well this family friend now is still like it shes 82 now and we hardly ever see her shes to opinionated person makes others feel uncomfortable and her constant uncalled for criticism and nastiness does get to others. She will criticize neighbours and criticize working mums including my family as well. I havent see her for two years I just think sometimes it can come across rude and not pleasent. Sorry for the rant

well done to MrsSchadenfreude on her honesty about not liking babies but loving children.

I have been a nanny for 18years - not because Im too stupid to do anything else but because I WANTED to work with children. I have had a job where the mum admitted she didnt "do" babies - I didnt think that made her a bad mother, once her children were more interactive she was a great mother.We are not all suited to everything and I know some women ,much as they love their children need to do other things as well as being a mum.

I am NOT against working mothers or nurseries but do think that its a long day for babies. I was job hunting not that long ago and was shocked by the amount of 24/5 (some 24/6) jobs that were on the market -where there was also another nanny to cover the FT nanny's time off. I refused to be put forward for those jobs as I do believe parents should spend time with their kids( despite the agency constantly reminding me of the large pay packet and even saying "just do it for 10-12 months and make some money" - and line their pockets...but thats another thread )

I had a nanny when my children were tiny. Which was great. I think it left me up about 50 pounds a month after working costs, but it was a long term investment for our family, which has paid off. We have also had all sorts of childcare (including phases of SAHPs) over the years, some great and some only just good enough.

I work in an environment where a degree is pretty much a base qualification, and most people have done several years of academic/vocational studies post that, with a requirement for continuous development, so a couple of GCSEs plus two years in college doesn't seem very qualified to me. But then given that most parents have no qualifications or experience prior to having children I'm not sure how relevant that is really.

All the nannies I have known have not wanted to use childcare for their own children, but then why would they? They have chosen to look after children as their job, so they must really enjoy it, and hopefully be good at it. I would not expect a childcare worker to understand why I might choose to go to work, and to be honest that doesn't bother me. The only place I have ever seen/heard this SAHM vs WOHM debate taken up so heatedly is Mumsnet anyway!

I did the NNEB more than 20 years ago and then it was a 2 year course, with 3 days spent in a nursery or a day nursery, and 2 days spent at college

I think it needed a few O grades to enter the course

I did the course as I liked kids and I wanted to work abroad as a nanny, their parents views didn't enter my head at 18!

But now I'm a forty something mum, I see childcare differently and I do have my own view of parents who leave babies/toddlers in childcare for nearly 12 hours a day, and nothing I've read on MN will alter my view

tootidy - that's a good point.

Why do people go into NN? To care for children, or to help out children's parents? I'm sure that nearly 100% do it for the former reason.

I think the OP is BU. NN work in a nursery because they like children, enjoy their company etc. When a person decides to train in this area they probably don't think about the parents just the kids.

Hedgewitch - I think you are right - if you look now they are saying they prefer you to have 2 or 3 GCSE's. I don't think that helps those who are properly educated, like yourself, because there is the risk it gets seen rather like hairdressing, as something to do if you are not very bright, instead of being seen as something vocational which it should be...

Hedgewitch - you can understand the generalisations when even your own union is saying it. Not that I give a monkeys how educated people are (and yes I am sure there are some with degrees doing it), just so long as they care about my children.

I know - the US doesn't adhere to European standards/ideals of collective support for the health care of the nation.

It's the same here in France - employees can't actually even set foot in their work places (for example to show off their new babies) for a good part of their maternity leave.

In the US many women DO go back to work two weeks after giving birth because of poor maternity leave provision. I think that's barbaric. I'm sure someone told me that in Germany it's actually illegal for employers to have a woman back to work within 8 weeks of her giving birth.

Tittybangbang - absolutely .

It is the hallmark of a civilised society that we collectively support new mothers and babies with maternity leave as they recover their health and get breastfeeding underway.

"I have never seen a man questioned for returning to work full time when his baby is two weeks old. But, women certainly experience it all the time

Sorry - I don't understand this point. Of course you lift an eyebrow when you hear about women back in the workplace two weeks after giving birth. Childbirth and breastfeeding mean that women and men have radically different experiences and needs postpartum.

actually I think the op is being unreasonable

why shouldn't nursery workers have a view?

if I worked in tesco does it mean I have to buy my shopping there?

there's the view here that nursery workers should never say a bad word about kids in f/t nursery, as if the mums didn't work f/t, the workers wouldn't have a job

BUT if the workers didn't work the mums would have no childcare for their children

the view raised earlier by I think it was squiffy was spot on, she isn't interested in what the workers might be saying about her and her choices, as long as they are kind to her child, she can accept they might not approve of her choices

I only skim read the article.
After a few vicious threads on here, it felt a little de ja vu!

..and never a single word of criticism against all conquering hero perfect men who are never castigated whatever they do. Mother as eternal whipping boy. Such is the sexism and misogyny which is endemic on this planet.

This is in the Bella magazine this week.
I haven't seen Bella for years, but went to my mums today and she has bought it, and its pretty much the extremes of both sides - one mother on each view, both saying the children are being damaged.

I think that people who don't approve of different parenting styles should not work in a day nursery! Or jobs that involve working with children!

Nursery staff(or any form of employment that involves working with children) should keep their opinions about the parents to themselves - LIKE IN ANY OTHER INDUSTRY!

I'm sick and tired of nursery staff bad-mouthing parents of whom they know NOTHING about, and worst still, be so indiscrete.

There's a world of difference in "slagging off" parents in the privacy of your own home, with a fellow staff member AND openly "slagging off" parents in front of other children or worst still, in front of the child concerned or a national forum where parents themselves can read the criticism.

After all, how would the same nursery staff like it if the parents did likewise? "Slag off" particular types of nursery staff on a national forum? "You can give it but you can't take it" springs to mind. Hypocrites.

"On the otherhand I could stay at home and turn into a narrowminded bitter old hag like my MIL who has never done a days work in her life having raised 4 children." (my bold)

Raising children isn't work, then?

The original point was about leaving small babies in nursery for long hours, five days a week, not about using a cm or a nanny, or using nurseries part-time, or using nurseries for older children. Why are people so defensive?

(It's ok, that's a rhetorical question, I think I know why. )

I can understand why people put their babies into nurseries for these very, very long hours, but I can't think it's an ideal way to raise an infant.

I did a mixture of things - I was SAHM for the first 6 months or so, while studying at home, and then set up a small business as a bookkeeper, working from home. I was lucky that DS1 slept through the night from six weeks of age.

I had a few clients, but not enough to meet all my costs, so then became a cm because I couldn't afford to pay for childcare but needed to earn more. (It helped that I do like babies and small children.)

I also worked part-time in the evenings and at weekends in any kind of work I could find - in a pub, in a video shop, in a bingo hall, selling Ann Summers at parties and so on. I didn't have a whole day off for nearly two years. When DS2 was 2, I used the experience gained to get a part-time day job which paid quite well, and used a cm. Both boys went to state nursery part-time.

In many ways I had the "best of both worlds" in that I was effectively around most of the time when the boys were tiny while still being able to earn, but there's a difference between "earning" and "having a career with pension etc".

hercules, I suspect we will never get a rational answer to the question about how it is possible for a ft parent to have a good relationship with the children if the other parent is at home or pt, but not if both parents work ft. I am not saying it works it all cases, but just a recognition from the other camp that it is possible for this to happen if the children are loved and the household is otherwise well organised with outsourcing of housework, childcare where necessary.

Sadly, I think Xenia is right about why it is so hard to get through to some of the more emotional elements in the SAHM. Is it so difficult to admit that there is more than one way of skinning a cat?

Squiffy, I am in awe of your categorisation of the different family situations out there. You have certainly thought this through.

these threads get so polorized (sp?) don't they? and its always the same posters on each side

"birds of a feather" and all that, but isn't it great that we are all so different, sure makes life more interesting!