Children being allowed to go to the toilet at school

You are replying literally four posts down from me giving a very detailed example of why your way of thinking doesn't work. I highly recommend scrolling back up and taking a look.

Yes very very different but teenagers don't vary that much across the West, so must be those things like more staff, smaller schools, and especially the hourly breaktimes.

Though I grew up in the UK and they weren't so strict about toilets when I was in school except for a brief phase when the deputy head decided the toilets should be locked but that seemed to fizzle out. The few times I needed to go during lessons I was allowed without fuss and don't remember anyone being told no.

You're Finnish I think?

Your country has higher staff to student ratios, smaller schools and better quality buildings. Also, a much smaller, socially cohesive population.

It used to be fashionable to laud Finland in the UK as an example of an educational system and I always found that strange, because the two countries are so, so different.

Wow, I am shocked, absolutely shocked, that a school that makes a huge show of being strict about toilet passes (and probably socks color, blazers, etc) can't be bothered to address little things like bullying, particularly when that bullying is the direct result of a teacher enforcing the school's policy.

I am equally shocked that some parents refuse to "support the school" and trust them implicitly in all things.

@ByCyanMoose
my son was bullied for a while afterwards, this is when I found out the school was very effective at a toilet policy but not an anti bullying one .
I work in a school and do understand how difficult it is for teachers. But I don’t understand why a pupil who never asks to go is denied , I could of understood had he constantly asked I would of taken him to the doctor to see if there was a medical reason or supported the school if he was just trying to get out of lessons.
I fully agree with the teachers on this thread that most parents will side with their child and not admit they are trying to get out of class or trashing toilets. But I would have wanted some discretion, yes Fred you can go you have never asked, no Fred you can’t go you go every lesson .

@Whatanerve have a look at the Eric website which specifically deals with this issue.

In general I think schools have swung the pendulum too far in response to behavioural problems from some children and are now treating every child as if they are a criminal waiting to happen.

It’s horrible.

A print out of medical notes??? I'd be calling the department, that is massive overreach and an invasion of privacy. If the Dr writes a note, that should be enough. Do they not trust Drs now and plan to assess the medical notes themselves to determine need? Bloody cheek!

I hope you are able to get help from the GP to get a toilet pass and make sure that there's no other issues with your DD's bowels. Also think you should go back to the doctors yourself - I didn't bother going to the doctors about my IBS for years as I assumed they'd just say yes its IBS, get used to it, but it came up in conversation during an appointment for something else and now I'm getting treatment (fibre supplement) that is actually helping to a fair degree and an appointment for the dietician to see if there's any help from that direction too. The doctor said that even if its normal for me that doesn't mean I should just have to put up with it - the same goes to you.

The whole toilet issue in schools is alien to me, in my country children go to the toilet when they need to. I assume there must be some issues as teenagers aren't magically better behaved here than in the UK but they must be dealing with them in some other way because not allowing access to the toilet just wouldn't be allowed I think. But they have much more breaks so use during lessons isn't needed so much

She should be allowed to go whenever she needs to, or chaperoned if she doesn't feel safe to do so. This should not be a matter for a parent to have to get external permission for.

We absolutely can and do say that..I will happily give certain kids more leeway than others, but that doesn't prevent the request from escalating into a major disruption to the lesson and learning of the class. Do you think the vandal kid is just going to say 'oh ok then' and settle down? If their motivation is to avoid work, the longer they can argue and distract the better. This isn't just about toilet use. Again I repeat, teachers would love nothing more than to work in an environment where these policies weren't necessary. We don't enjoy it. But its not a simple issue.

I've never understood this idea that "If I let one kid go I have to let the other go, even if he destroyed a toilet last week." No, you don't. School leadership should support the teacher in saying: "actually you can't go, because I gave you that privilege yesterday and you abused it. Mark on the other hand has never been in trouble and can therefore be trusted to leave my sight for five minutes." If leadership won't support the teacher in making these judgments, and enforce severe consequences on the students who actually cause the problems, then that's the real issue.

There are all kinds of situations where people are treated differently depending on their behavior and past actions. That is essentially the entire theory behind the criminal justice system.

That's awful. Was your child alright after that as far as being willing to return to school, being teased by other kids etc.? That's my worst fear when it comes to that kind of policy: the social repercussions of an "accident" at secondary school age.

I understand there is a reason for these policies -- but that doesn't mean the policy isn't incredibly stupid. Literally locking the toilets in a building filled with hundreds of people or having a blanket policy of refusing is a recipe for disaster and a foolproof way of losing the respect and support of even the good families.

You have met schools like this?
Any reason why you got through lots of schools?

Thank you @DaisyJohnson . But the non teachers on this thread dont want to hear any of that. To be fair, my school is nowhere near at that level but last year we had 4 year 10 boys cause thousands of damage to some toilets. They were out of action for a week. They reopened and were damaged to the same extent WITHIN AN HOUR.

I'm gonna elaborate on your point a bit.

I understand that "why punish the good kids for the behaviour of the hooligans?" makes perfect sense to some people, so let me give you an example. I'm going to use four renamed children as an example.

I was teaching Year 7, and I noticed that the really kind and friendly Susie Jones was acting oddly scared. I looked out of the window and saw Jacob Brown and Johnny Smith in Year 9 looking in from outside, making gestures towards her. This continued for a while, including them shouting into the room. In the end I locked the door, hid her, and sent for on call to come and help. It turns out that Susie reported Jacob for misbehaving on the bus and for several days they had been arranging a time to get out of lessons, find Susie, and scare the living hell out of her through classroom windows and sometimes by booting the door open and throwing stuff at her.

Some context here: The school tried to have Johnny permanently excluded the year before but it was overturned by the local authority's independent review on account of the fact that he was too smart to go without education for the time it would take him to find a new school.

The next day we got an email from SLT telling us to never, under any circumstances, allow Jacob or Johnny to leave the classroom. Later that day I had Johnny in my class. I noticed Jacob lurking out of my classroom window. Then, Johnny loudly shouted "I'm desperate, let me go to the toilet". I said no.

A few minutes later little Maya Johnson came to me and whispered that she had started her period and needed to go to the toilet. She is absolutely a delightful student so I trusted that she needed to go. I whispered to her to pretend that she was collecting something from another classroom for me, and told her to go - but she had to get pads out of her bag first, and of course, Johnny noticed.

Over the course of the next 20 minutes, Johnny began YELLING "I WANT THE TOILET I WANT THE TOILET I WANT THE TOILET LET ME OUT I WANT THE TOILET I WANT THE TOILET". I sent for on call but on call was busy dealing with Jacob and several others. Johnny then degenerated into hurling abuse at me. "I WANT THE TOILET, LET ME OUT, SIGN THE LOG YOU STUPID F-ING GINGER C" at me, and variations of the same.

When I refused to react and just waited for on call, he turned his attention to poor little Maya Johnson. Since she'd been allowed to go, he turned his rage onto her and began insulting and mocking her. At this point I asked Johnny to go into the classroom next door (for Maya's sake). He refused. To try to save Maya I even told him fine, go to the toilet, even though I knew that meant that he would seek out poor Susie. He kept hurling abuse at Maya, so I escorted Maya to the door, removed poor Maya from the classroom, and told her to go to a specific other teacher, then had to stand in the doorway to block Johnny from following her.

"Keep the naughty ones in the classroom and let the nice ones go" doesn't work, either. It just turns the teacher and the nice students into targets for the rage of the naughty ones.

I don't know why our society is like this. I never witnessed anything like this while I was at school. But this kind of behaviour is commonplace across the country now. I don't know how to resolve it other than campaign for more funding for schools so that we can afford to pay for full time toilet monitors and escorts. But when we campaign for better funding, all we hear is "lazy teachers are overpaid and already have too much time off".

These policies would have really stressed me out as a child. I have a fairly active bladder but also, as soon as I know there is no toilet available I need to go more. I’ve been like it my whole life, even now I check new places I visit will have toilet access before going, even if I probably wouldn’t need to use it.

We had to ask to use the toilet when I was at school but there were always plenty and most of them unlocked, except a few on the upper floors which were locked outside of lunchtime.

You've literally just restated the exact problem we have. You want anyone who really needs it to be allowed to go. But you dont want constant free access. How are teachers meant to work that? Yes we basically do know who the idiots are but how do you actually justify that when three kids ask and you say yes to one and no to two more? You set off a chain of timewasting argument and potential conflict when you're supposed to be explaining a concept, going round helping etc.

I think any child needing the toilet should be able to go ,I say this as a parent of a child who when in year 7 wet themselves in class as he was refused. But there should not be constant free access , I say this as a person who works in a school sees the amount of children constantly out of lessons , sees the damage done day in day out to the toilets , the anti social behavior that goes on . And the eye watering bills that are being paid to fix toilets.
The schools are treading a fine line between human dignity and maintaining a safe environment for all.

There are a lot of children who take the piss , can’t hold there bladder for over an hour while in lessons but can manage to play sports , travel to school on a bus , go on school trips with no access to toilet for longer.

Except the school haven't demanded medical records. Theyve said if you don't want to provide a GP letter, a copy of the notes are fine. Which some people will be happy to provide a print out of a specific consultation rather than arrange a GP letter, as sometimes you have to pay for GP letters. Would you expect to apply for a Blue Badge without providing any medical information?

Some schools think they can demand whatever they like. Sweet, really.
OK, it's not.

Medical records are strictly confidential between the individual and their care provider. A school is not entitled to insist on sharing medical records simply to grant a toilet pass. Even courts cannot insist on medical records themselves when looking for proof of something, instead asking for a letter from GP.

I've met schools like this. I found it's easier to smile and just involve the surgery who are happy to handle the overreach.

Your child sounds like they need a medical assessment anyway and possibly some help in navigating the situation. I would ask your GP to write a suitably brief letter, leaving them in no doubt about the support the school was required to extend to your child without further interference in their privacy.

I'm sure they would be welcome to call the surgery if they needed any appropriate clarification. If your GP won't write a letter, you need another GP.

You'd be surprised, it does happen in workplaces too sometimes.

So they are making themselves unsuitable for mainstream schools. Not those just vaping though

There are non SEND children who are making themselves unsuitable for mainstream schooling if this is happening. If they out themselves on social media they can be dealt with appropriately

I would doubt that it is legal for the school to have a child's medical notes - are they not confidential?

No one is blaming the SEN kids. But only those with EHCPs have a TA with them. So yes plenty of SEN kids are as guilty as non SEN kids.