Poking holes in condoms!

squarecrow
Everybody who has consensual sex is rolling the dice, but when one party deliberately sabotages the contraceptive then that changes the situation without the others informed consent.
Of course it does. If someone pokes holes in a condom, that is exactly what has happened.

Just like you might roll the dice with a new partner choosing to have sex without a barrier contraceptive if you are on the pill. That situation would be changed entirely if you afterwards found out that the other person knew they had an STI and declined to inform you. See the difference?
Between poking a hole in a condom and choosing not to protect yourself? Are you trying to make my point for me?

One involves a “roll of the dice” and the other involves a deliberate act of deception which removes informed consent from the other party.
I've not argued otherwise 🤷‍♀️
If someone chooses NOT to use a condom, they absolutely are rolling the dice. Sabotaging the contraception removes consent

A man who does not want children or a relationship has the option of using a condom or not using a condom. He is not a victim if he chooses the 'easy' shag.

I feel like you keep saying “Meh” to try and show how flippant your attitude is. I doubt you would feel the same if this was your own son or daughter being treated this way.
Being treated what way? Having holes poked in condoms or being told a new/casual partner is on the pill? Because they are separate scenarios.
I have sons and daughters and they've always known and understood the importance of respecting their AND their partners sexual and reproductive health. If they chose not to protect themselves, they really couldn't complain, and nor could I, about the potential consequences.

Legally, you're entirely correct.

Men and women alike are able to obtain consent via deception, including by lying about internal contraception (be it "I'm on the pill" or "I've had a vasectomy").

The legal difference with condoms in the STD risk, nothing to do with pregnancy.

Where I disagree is that a man (or woman) is "stupid" to trust their sexual partner, particularly if it's someone they generally trust in their relationship.

No, lying about taking the pill does not constitute assault and no matter how many times you say it, that doesn't change. 'Your' situation and the one in the OP are completely different.

I have never described women as innocent, vulnerable, powerless and have acknowledged that they can be vile and manipulative etc etc. So no idea why you are fixated on that.

If a man is stupid enough to leave the contraception up to someone they simply want to shag, then he is NOT a victim. He made a choice, knowing what he did and didn't want. The whole 'but I was tricked' is just an excuse.

You can bang on about misandry all you like trying to make it fit, but it doesn't change the fact that the buck stops with the man. 🤷‍♀️

Everybody who has consensual sex is rolling the dice, but when one party deliberately sabotages the contraceptive then that changes the situation without the others informed consent.

Just like you might roll the dice with a new partner choosing to have sex without a barrier contraceptive if you are on the pill. That situation would be changed entirely if you afterwards found out that the other person knew they had an STI and declined to inform you. See the difference?

One involves a “roll of the dice” and the other involves a deliberate act of deception which removes informed consent from the other party.

I feel like you keep saying “Meh” to try and show how flippant your attitude is. I doubt you would feel the same if this was your own son or daughter being treated this way.

Really? Most people here are saying it’s despicable…

Women can never do wrong, even with an extreme crime, if a man did what they didn't like that isn't remotely a crime or wrong.

Without the images it’s not helpful…

Not the most unreliable when you look at their failure rates over a 10 year period, but really not brilliant. Horemonal contraceptives are far superior and even then not the catch all people would like to believe

Are they? But the only main barrier against sexually transmitted diseases etc.

Knowing you will report this post and get it deleted too - I still say you are wrong. There are men and women all over the uk having consensual sexual relationships on the understanding that neither wishes to get married or have children together. They make informed decisions when they do so and evaluate the risks and choose contraception accordingly. Many men rely upon their partners taking the pill responsibly, and both parties when using condoms rely on the other party NOT sabotaging the packets.

My mother deliberately and intentionally sabotaged the agreed contraception. Had my father KNOWN she was lying he could either have insisted upon using condoms or chosen NOT to have sex with her - this was the decision he chose to adhere to for the rest of his life until he could afford a vasectomy. SHE took that choice away from him. SHE is in the wrong.

I am an avowed feminist - but being so does not mean that I perceive women to be innocent, vulnerable, powerless or unable to commit selfish and manipulative acts such as readily as their male counterparts. I repeat misandry, especially when coupled with the infantilisation of women, does women a disservice.

Sticking pins in condom and lying about taking the pill removes consent from male sexual partners and constitutes assault. It is unforgivable and criminal.

Meh.
Going by the posters own words..
Man is clear that he does not intend to have a child, marry or even have a long term relationship with a woman. She doesn't want to/can't use condoms so he rolls the dice anyway. She falls pregnant.
He is not a victim. He never had any intention of staying with this woman but, instead of walking away, he decided he's leave the contraception up to the person he had no real interest (beyond a shag) in
Completely different scenario that the OP btw 🙄

Poster insisted that this would be sexual assault these days. It wouldn't. I'm not sure why you think I should 'accept that'?

You insist that I'm wrong. Would help if you pointed which part is wrong 🙄

You made an assumption that the man in this scenario didn’t want to wear a condom. It has been explained that he was actually told the woman couldn’t tolerate them in order for her to have the control over all contraception. But you are still insisting you know better about the particulars of this other person’s story - for what reason I can’t imagine because it isn’t helping you win this argument at all (the quote history shows both sides of the argument back to when it began so it can be seen you are wrong and just won’t let it go).

If what this poster and the OP are saying is true then both men are victims of sexual assault as it is currently defined in this country. I don’t know why you can’t accept that and want to twist the stories into somehow being the man’s fault or, when that isn’t possible, doubt the fact they are even real in order to not have to back down, but maybe you should think about that.

I stated that it was MY MOTHER who refused to use a condom - claiming they irritated her (this may have been the case as they were high in latex back in the 60/70s) but it was a deliberate strategy to ensure he was beholden to her taking the pill, so that she could then NOT take it. Had the pill not be available she would absolutely have poke holes in the condoms (it was commonly done back then to get pregnant and trap men into marriage - it was JOKED about by women when I was growing up).

My bio father WAS the victim. I am NOT scarred - I am happily married in an honest open relationship where I have not had to lie, deceive or trap my partner of 34 years into being with me, but my father WAS scarred. After my mother, he NEVER had a relationship again because he was too scared of being trapped this way. My mother went on to repeat her actions with another man more successfully. Today, in many jurisdictions, he (and stepfather) would have the right to seek a prosecution, but back then there was no recourse and just imagine the social stigma in a culture of sexual freedom, of a man openly talking about it? Imagine how the man in the scenario the OP describes would feel if he ever becomes aware?

I find your immediate ‘if the post is true’ and the ‘it’s the man’s fault for not wearing a condom’ comments riddled with misandry. Women are just as equally responsibly for contraception in mutual consenting, sexual relationships as their partners - this was the whole point of the pill: to give women control over their bodies and reproductive outcomes, to protect themselves AGAINST unwanted pregnancy. It is NOT a tool for stealthy sexual assault which is what the OP has described and what I was evidencing as far more common than people think. It is also not, just because the victim is a man, any less heinous or damaging.

Misandry is as bad as misogyny and undermines any and all attempts to redress the injustices and abuses that arise from the latter. It weakens protections for women and distorts perception of the laws established to protect them.

I think you are taking this rather personal.

You need to get a grip. Or step away from the screen.
I have not, in any way, disregarded YOUR lived experience or knowledge of your own lived life.
You may need to read my posts again.

Absolutely, women can be vile and deceptive and manipulative and all the other adjectives you can think of. Of course they can be. Never have I said otherwise.

"Just how the fuck can you get off blaming a man who genuinely thought he had agreed the terms on which he would have a mutual sexual relationship, the basis for his giving consent, for a woman abusing that trust?"

Easy.
By your own words, he did not want children, marriage or even a long term relationship. That looks like a casual shag. The pill had not been available that long, at least not for unmarried women. A man who DOES NOT want those things, to put his trust in a)someone he has no intention of being tied to and b) a new, medical, way of preventing pregnancy, is not the smartest, surely? It's not like he was 'in love' or 'wanting a future' with her, right? He (the man) is responsible for making sure he is protected against unplanned and unwanted pregnancy. Not a hard concept and something that really hasn't ever changed 🤷‍♀️

You are clearly scarred by your experiences with your mother. I'm genuinely sorry about that. But, as far as where 'blame' lies, I believe I DO know what I'm talking about. Something lacking way too much today. Personal responsibility.

"You re no better than the people who blame rape victims for wearing short skirts or getting drunk on a night out because ‘if they gave the impression they were up for it’ they were asking for it. Or the person who is physically assaulted by a partner being too rough and strangling or beating them as part of the sex act. NO ONE - male or female - deserves to have their consent taken away"
Posting about one man who didn't want to use a condom has somehow translated into a really vile accusation and I think you need to explain how you reach such a nasty conclusion from it. I have NEVER held such a view or posted in a way that says otherwise. So, please, do explain how you got to that.

I am VERY glad and VERY supportive of laws and procedures that have evolved to protect individuals from sexual assault. You seem to be trying to apply those laws and procedures to a situation they don't belong. ie: YOUR situation. It doesn't apply 🤷‍♀️

Oh, and IF the original post is true, the woman is absolutely worthy of condemnation

There is a distinct difference between a person making a promise/commitment and failing to honour that (ie the flakey parent who walks out on their family - no crime or even intent to deceive) versus a person deliberately sabotaging contraception (illegal, intentional and assault) in order to trick someone into parenthood and a lifelong financial commitment.

No hypocrisy here - applies to both sexes equally.

The previous argument/ analogy you elegantly dismantled was pure whataboutery

I have never missed the laughing reaction more! Also Whataboutery is also known as excusing hypocrisy.

"This thread is about people deliberately sabotaging contraception. Which is a separate thing, and I would say constitutes sex without informed consent whichever of the sexes does it to the other."

This.

The previous argument/ analogy you elegantly dismantled was pure whataboutery.

It’s not the same situation though? One is abandoning a family and the man in that situation might be called a shit, but he wouldn’t be called a rapist would he? A woman abandoning her family would be judged in that situation too.

This thread is about people deliberately sabotaging contraception. Which is a separate thing, and I would say constitutes sex without informed consent whichever of the sexes does it to the other.

It’s deliberate to choose to forsake your family though? Anyone makes that choice on the spot. It’s usually the man who chooses himself. The second a woman does the same thing, as this case shows, she’s compared to a rapist. Too far in my opinion.

I’ve seen the breakdown of families and it’s usually because a man has walked out. But you will still have women defending them. In this argument, I’ll choose to kind of see where a woman comes from.

It would be difficult to know whether he intended to abandon his family or whether he thought he would be a good dad and wanted to be the kind of person that would provide, then found it was too much for him. I think people who get married, promising to “forsake all others” then cheat are almost always intending to be faithful when they marry, it just turns out later they were wrong about themselves. These men you speak of are the same imo, most of the time.

What we’re talking about here is a deliberate act of deception to get pregnant knowing the other partner doesn’t want the same thing. We know it was deliberate because she has explicitly said so.

1 💯 would tell him what a deceitful wife he’s got

What about the man who promised he’d be a great dad? Promised he’d always support them financially? Then fucks off and cuts them off. Hasn’t he then tricked a woman into starting a family? I think both of these fall into the same category. No where near rape.

Your friend is unhinged @condomgate

I feel sorry for her husband.

Absolutely spot on.