To be appalled that parents need to be supported by government to potty train their child

Same here. By approx age 2.5. Done. That was the norm.

Yes this is definitely true to some extent! Take away the discomfort and remove the incentive. The Oh Crap potty training book also blames the whole gentle parenting and waiting till a child is older/ready as a major shift in toilet training capability. Potty training is learning a skill and requires patience and teaching. Not waiting for a magic moment when a child can suddenly sort themselves out.

Cloth nappies were uncomfortable when wet/soiled. The used nappy formed a lump/ball between the child's legs. Toilet training was relatively easy. The only thing was you had to be very careful when flushing down the toilet as a good many children liked to watch stuff disappear (watches, dollies, lego, money etc).

Disposable ones are comfortable as the wet/bulky feeling is wicked away from the skin.

Just not true. People can't be arsed to do anything for themselves any more.

If you really think this is them following google advice and not actually giving a shit about bringing up their kids you're deluded.

Some people shouldn't be parents.

Crikey I never asked my parents for help, they weren't all that great- I envy those with good parents but that's the hand I was dealt- I certainly didn't expect the state to help with my children.

Having kids is a responsibility, not a right. As an adult you figure out whether you have the means and will to do it- it's not on anyone else.

Agree - a lot of parenting is about consistency, routine and hard work. It used to frustrate me no end when someone would say - you are so lucky that your children are well mannered- luck had nothing to do with it! It’s about having standards and expectations and modelling the behaviour we expect and that is not always easy.

I can believe the swiping a book very easily.

'But seeing a two year old in a pram drinking cola from a bottle and watching a phone whilst the parent smokes in - this is the school gate . . ' - Is this true or an exaggeration? Is it common?

Some examples of “readiness” advice from the NHS. It’s tricky to find now because it’s all been replaced.

• Parents were advised to wait for distinct behavioral or physical signs that a toddler was ready (such as telling you when they needed a wee, staying dry for hours, or showing dislike for a wet nappy) before introducing the potty.

DH and I were both quite shocked by this report today and reminisced that when our twenty-something DCs were small, they were expected to be out of nappies (at least in the daytime) by nursery school! That had always been the case, as far as we knew. Not sure what on earth has happened in the intervening two decades to change it!

I do agree with this too. It's just financially harder now to have one parent at home during the early years, which used to be very much the norm. I'm not talking about the 1930s either, I mean in the 80s.

The nappy manufacturers rubbed their hands in glee & promoted nappies for older children

indeed

back in the 1960s the average age for potty training was 18-20 months and 1950s was 12-18 months. Mothers had an incentive to get a child trained and out of nappies, as the next child was on its way

Yes. I think sometimes ‘ being ready’ is interpreted by the parent as the child saying they want to use the toilet rather than the parents working out the child is ready to learn so let’s get on with teaching them.

I can remember a few years ago walking around Tesco, during August, and hearing a mum saying to her little lad, “better get you a toothbrush, cos you’ll need to start brushing your teeth again soon, before you go back to school.” And when I did my teacher training at an infant’s school, the reception staff, saying that so many of the little ones wet themselves. Others were picking up food at lunch with their fingers, no idea how to hold a knife and fork. My kids were dry, clean, eating properly by the time they were at preschool, around three years old. Preschool wouldn’t have taken them otherwise.

And every time they typed in, they were told to wait until their child is ready, including from the NHS. So they waited, and waited , and waited.

I used that too! I know a lot of people on hete hate her but i found all her books really useful.

There wasn't a scheme like that when I was a child, and my parents managed to potty train me and brushed my teeth (and taught me) and to use cutlery before I started primary school.

We have the internet now where you can literally type in a few words and get all the information available on how to do something or how to learn a skill if you're not sure.

There are even books on the subject (available in libraries)

There's always someone like you to blame some political party for something or other.

Maybe try blaming the parents for their sheer lack of effort.

There is NO excuse for this level of shitty parenting.

Parents managed for generations to potty train their children without Surestart! My parents and grandparents certainly did

I think part of the problem is the real-life disconnect and loss of community. Social media has connected people in such shallow ways, and replaced so much of the real connection we need as humans. I honestly don't think many people are aware of how much effort parenting is, because they don't see others putting in the v effort around them. When parenting and childhood are "Instagramised" it is expected that it's all about "making memories," expensive days out, and buying more stuff - whereas the reality is lots of parenting is boring, hardwork, consistency, and routine. There's no insta-moment in that.
I won't just blame social media though, I also think society had already changed long before that. Practical parenting skills don't seem to be passed on through generations so much any more, unless you live in a more traditional-oriented culture, such as Traveller families.

I’ve been an early years teacher for 27 years and when I first started children had to be toilet trained in order to start preschool at 2.5yrs (SEN exempted of course)
Funnily enough all the children were dry by 2.5yrs.
Then the government decided that was not inclusive & Early years settings were no longer allowed to insist children were toilet trained.
I think that decision has contributed to the problems there are today
It made it seem normal for children to be in nappies at 3 & 4.
The nappy manufacturers rubbed their hands in glee & promoted nappies for older children.
It all became the norm, no ‘shame’ was felt by parents if their older child was still in nappies as they would have felt previously.

I have to say I have never sent a pupil off to school still in nappies, but we work hard with parents to make sure that doesn’t happen.
All our children sit down together at a table to eat & are taught good table manners, we resisted the Ofsted fad of ‘rolling snack’ where children don’t all sit down together.
They all know how to dress themselves, personal hygiene etc
I know these skills should be taught by parents but I can’t help but wonder about the quality of the early years experience that these children in nappies, with no hygiene, unable to dress themselves etc have had

I see it too where I volunteer - child in a pushchair with a screen and no interaction with the parent. But as so many adults walk around staring at a phone it’s hardly surprising they give the child a screen too.

I completely agree OP. It’s really pathetic, shit parenting - I wonder why some people bother having kids at all.

I see a lot of the usual excuses trotted out, but there is no excuse. My parents were “busy” in the late 70s, they both worked full time, had very little spare income, yet I started school potty trained.

Parents also need to put some effort in. Nurseries can't do everything.

Yes agreed. My SIL is a reception teacher and some parents actually say to her face that potty training, or other basic tasks like eating with cutlery are her job and that’s why they send them to school!

Agree with a PP that we should bring back shame. There will always be ‘that family’ but the culture of excusing everything means you end up with the majority of a class needing to be taught basics before they even start learning stuff!

The vast majority of children attend nursery or some form of official childcare , so where do all these vast amounts of untrained children come from?

A good nursery will support with potty training and using cutlery. My son learnt how to wee standing up at nursery. It was Montessori in all but name though.