Where do you think Jewish people come from?

I just saw online that 14-16% of American Jewish people are converts and around 3000 people per year start introductory courses in Judaism.

The fact that Israel is an expansionist state - has to be to accommodate that automatic right. As @Bloodysquirellls said, depending on which side of the moral debate you stand, settling could be considered stealing.

Let's not forget that back in the heady days of the 90s when it felt like a two state solution was achievable, Hamas was blowing up buses and murdering innocent Israeli civilians in order to (successfully) derail it.

Because it's both. Yes, people can convert to Judaism but historically numbers have been small. Similarly, you can be an atheist and still ethnically Jewish. Also explains the existence of "Jews for Jesus" = basically Jews who converted to Chistianity but didn't want to give up their ethnic identity. Ethnic Jews are geneally genetically related to each other even after millenia of displacement.

Mumsnet are still allowing this thread, despite it veering off-course.

Absolutely!!
How can I live next to a neighbour who plants a bomb in my car, who tries to shoot me when I take out the bins?

The argument for a Jewish homeland was never based solely on the fact that Jewish ancestors once lived there. It was also rooted in the reality that Jews have been one of the most persistently persecuted minorities in history.

Some people seem unaware that in addition to the holocaust where six million Jews were murdered, Jews were expelled from England, repeatedly expelled from France, driven out of Spain and Portugal, massacred during the Crusades, confined to ghettos across Europe, and subjected to repeated pogroms in the Russian Empire.

In the 20th century, most Jewish communities in Arab and other Middle Eastern countries also fled or were expelled amid persecution and rising hostility.

And even today, the lived reality of Jews is heightened security measures, such as having to wear a stab vest, even in supposedly safe and tolerant countries like the UK.

Given that history, the desire for a homeland where Jews would be a majority and not dependent on the goodwill or tolerance of others is entirely understandable and rational.

Because the Palestinians (or probably more accurately Hamas, as their sort of elected representatives) and the various organisations propping them up (ISIS, The Taliban, etc) have no interest in a two state solution. The charter for Hamas is the death of all Jews worldwide and it is pretty tricky to negotiate with that as a starting point.

Nope, we're real!
I'm proud to be a Zionist.
Boker tov everyone!

Told you this has would descend into Israel-Bashing!
(Off to watch Eastenders, so sheket b'vakasha)

Ultimately, the evidence suggests that we all come from Africa and emigrated from there.

Who really comes from anywhere definable? More importantly, who cares when innocent blood is being spilled on both sides.

Both sides have right and horrific wrong on their side.

I am far more interested in why there are no genuine efforts to seek a permanent peace settlement and a two-state solution.

Why is the UN doing nothing about this?

In no particular order:

There are maps in existence which show previous efforts to achieve a peace solution.

There are previous models for moving forward, such as truth and reconciliation in South Africa, power sharing in Northern Ireland or even the de-militarised zone on the Korean peninsula. I’m not saying that those models are perfect but they are a starting point.

There are the possibilities of technology, for example what about connecting Gaza and a West Bank zone with a high-speed elevated rail line?

To be quite frank, there are other pressing problems in the world and it is high time that this pitiful tribal rivalry is resolved.

You don't have a claim to a place just because your ancestors used to live there

I know you're applying that statement to the Israeli Jews you've just committed blood libel against, but that's the entire basis of Palestinian discontent dismissed there. Israel exists now, several generations have been born there.

Thank you - the saddest part is that it’s so normal, we don’t even think about it.

i had to take my son for a catch-up vaccination, which was held at a regular local primary school. We just walked in from
the street. He was stunned, and so worried for the kids there that there wasn’t security on the door ☹️

this whole thread has been so refreshingly supportive and reinforced my suspicions that most of our lovely fellow Brits do support us - even if they’d rather keep quiet than face abuse for stating their support. So, thank you - it’s a great feeling to wake up to

I’m definitely not a Zionist bot! There have been some useful books / resources shared on this thread.

Their mother's vaginas.

You don't have a claim to a place just because your ancestors used to live there. I don't see America giving America back or the Australians giving Australia back etc etc.

I don't give a damn where your religion came from, I care that you're brutally murdering, torturing and raping people including children. It's not anti-Semitism because I think the same of all the men doing that shit no matter who you pray to. If your god is ok with that then I'd rather spend eternity in hell

It's not just an "interesting" version, it's far more based in fact than your little fantasy. Perhaps if you read some books rather than getting your education on tiktok. "One Palestine, complete" by Tom Segev is a good acount of what happened during the British mandate and in the run up to the State of Israel. It has absolutely nothign to do with the US and certainly not because Britain didn't take refugees. How absurd.

The UN brought Jews to Palestine and gave them land? WTAF? That never happened and the UN had no authority to make it happen. The UN voted on partition after the British requested it try to find a solution as they couldn't. The UN commission (no Britis involved) thought partition the fairest way forward and it was voted on and passed as a resolution. Rejected by the Arabs - but with no counter proposal. They rejected ANY jewish self determination in mandatory Palestine. It was their way or the highway, no compromise. They thought they'd win it all and they lost.

What is interesting though is that the Palestinian Arabs never declared a state. The Palestinian Zionists did, on the day the Brits left. Why didn't the Palestinan Arabs declare a state of Palestine in 1948. They certainly could have if they'd have wanted.

I feel for you, it’s bloody awful. No one should have to do this outside schools and synagogues.

I never understood why the term "ethno-religion" is used in this context. I think it would be better to use a term that combines "religion" and "culture" because those are things you can adopt.

I am not going to share the ethnic background of a Ashkenazi Jewish person by converting to Judaism. Though I am pretty sure my conversion would allow me citizenship in Israel.

Hello! I presume I’m one of them… us bots still need to decide what’s for dinner, find stuff for our husbands that is right in front of their noses, and do the school run. Except my school run involves taking my turn putting on a stab vest and standing outside huge metal gates to protect the kids and teachers inside.

jolly nice to meet you

But the discourse on this has to include what’s happening in Gaza. It’s not anti-semitic to include two genocides in the discussion. You’re asking about the jewish homeland; people are suggesting that Israelis indiscriminately killing and displacing the people who also live there is not helpful.
I completely agree that Israel is a home for Jewish people, going back millennia, and it is also a home for Palestinians, going back millennia.

People can’t expect to come on here and say ”how dare you discount the extermination of Jews in the 1930s and 40s” (which I haven’t actually seen anyone do on this thread. I think there is generally - for once- a good understanding of the constant discrimination and forced movement of Jews throughout history) and then immediately go on to say the genocide in Gaza is all a lie and propaganda, whilst movements are made to do the same thing in the West Bank.

You can’t have this discussion whilst pretending war/genocide surrounding this very subject is not happening right now

Except they're not. However it is the Jewish people's ancestral homeland from where they were forcibly displaced

Ur of the Chaldees is where Abram came from, I believe.

Having got that out of my system, there are (at least) two things which make this a really difficult situation to solve.

Firstly, Jews absolutely need a country. Over a thousand years of history tells us that, for reasons I don't fully understand, almost whenever a country starts to go bad, Jews are among the first to be persecuted. It's not just the Holocaust, it's hundreds of years of discrimination, expulsion and suspicion. So if they are not going to have the country of Israel, where can they have which will be a safe haven?

Secondly, there are people on both sides who think they have a divine right to the land. Some Jews believe God gave it to them. Some Muslims hold the view that any land which has ever been ruled by Muslims must never be allowed to pass out of Muslim control. I am not sure how prevalent those views are, but I suspect their existence (on both sides) is why the two state solution never seems to get off the ground.

Unless the UN or someone (probably the US) wants to get back to colonisation and enforce a two state solution (which will mean both sides hate and attack them and given Israel has a very good military I'm not sure it would even be possible) I think that part of the world will continue to be a brutal mess. I wish there was an answer but I don't think there is.

Happy? No. Of course not. But as the world collectively decided Jewish people don’t belong in Spain, Iraq, Afghanistan, England, etc etc at various points in history it’s unclear to me where people think we ‘do’ belong. Hamas certainly thinks we belong nowhere and should be wiped out. We have been kicked out of almost every other country in the Middle East (years before the current war). We obviously will never feel safe in Europe. So no. Obviously I don’t love the background (of America or Australia or Pakistan or or or) but we are here now and can’t fix our past. And any solution Hamas has suggested is pretty horrific.

Pot, kettle, black. You call any argument against your support for the illegal settlements in the West Bank 'terrorist propaganda'. Your bias is blatant. You pretend to ask a legitimate question but you attack every poster who disagrees with you.

Luckily, the tide is turning against this hard-right messianic Israeli government.