Christmas leave priority

I suggest ignoring @Peonysandponies, she’s forever jumping on the “the law” bandwagon.

“She” isn’t doing anything. It’s isn’t the law, you cannot enforce it, and since I own my business, you’re out of luck! And, like I said, in more than 20 years, I’ve never had this issue. Everyone respects everyone else. How amazing!

What Christmas is all about can be a whole different thread 😅

I always had to work it to let my colleague that was happily married with teens have leave ever single year he was due on shift, because " you need to think of the children".
And that was not me just not being able to have leave too, that was me being expecting to cover him when I was not even due in (because childless people have fuck all to do outside of work). The pressure was ridiculous, but thankfully a new manager put a stop to it.

How about teaching your kids that they can't have everything they want, and that life gets in the way of things like xmas.

Maternity leave cover doesn't exist in a specialist team ( or probably anywhere else) in the nhs. Its suck it up and get on with it. It's not something that is 'managed' certainly not in my case...there was no one else.

It's interesting from your perspective that its the organisations fault for not providing adequate Maternity care but its my childless fault for not covering a working mother's holidays. The same person who covers the late starts, the early finishes, little Johnny's dental appointments and all the other gaps at work to support working mothers. You've waxed lyrical about societies need for children and how mothers must be supported ...they are ...child friendly policies etc benefits and maternity leave noone is suggesting they shouldn't be. I've also sat listening to many working mothers moaning about their useless or lazy partners, the fathers of these children, who leave everything to the mothers and yet here i am expected to help out because the dad can't or won't share parenting responsibilities. Mumsnet has plenty of evidence of that.

There isn’t a single business in the country where parental priority is law. That IS black and white. And you know it, you just don’t like it!

You’re clutching at straws there.

If they used dog ownership as a category you couldn’t argue it wasn’t fair because you aren’t disabled and don’t have a guide dog. Or that you don’t have one because you are allergic and should therefore be considered a dog owner in spirit.

It's ok, when all these people supporting this have kids will once older they will actually realise what they are creating. So entitled

I highly doubt it would meet the criteria of proportionate aim which is about the business need or for example it was necessary to meet H&S requirements. Examples in link below

www.acas.org.uk/employer-decision-protected-characteristic/objective-justification

Weve decided we think parents with young children should have Christmas day at home which doesn't impact on the business one way or another is highly likely not to be accepted as a proportionate aim.

I am happy to be corrected if you have any case law examples, but I really don't think I've ever come across a proportionate aim accepted on that basis in 20 years of HR

I am a parent of under 5s and have also worked in retail where it was really tough to get time off around Christmas, so I sympathise with both sides.

Christmas Eve and morning are so magical for young children and you can't really just do it another day in the way that a family of adults could decide to due to Father Christmas etc. Plus it wouldn't be fair to make super excited little children wait until a parent gets home from work in the evening to open their gifts.

Amongst the families I know personally, it would be highly unlikely that neither parent could get time off for childcare over Christmas, even if both couldn't. Obviously this would be different in a single-parent family or where both parents are nurses/emergency services etc. I think parents wanting Christmas Eve off is more to do with wanting to experience the magic and see their children's joy, which is understandable.

Before I had children, I always worked Christmas Eve so that the people with children could be with them, as I remember it as such a magical day/evening from my own childhood. As much as I would have loved Christmas Eve off, I was ok with being off after Christmas instead for this reason.

That being said, obviously childfree people still have families and places to be so I am not sure what the answer is beyond a rotation system. First come first served doesn't work because you will always have that one person who puts in a request for all the prime holiday dates on 1st Jan for the whole year.

Given your pro choice stance, I’m surprised you haven’t chosen a non-parenting forum to hang-out….

After all, nothing in the law preventing you from doing so :)

No way I'd put up with that. Thankfully my industry shuts down for Xmas.

I'm not clutching at straws, I have no skin in the game as my office shuts for Christmas so I get it off regardless of my personal circs but as a HR professional I am answering a question about how childlessness could come into it.

It may be a tiny risk and it may be difficult for a childless person to link to a medical conditions/disability but it is a risk nonetheless and one a childless employee MAY make.

Other risks that also exist have already been covered on the thread - sexual orientation and age discrimination.

Disgruntled ppl will clutch at straws, working in HR has taught me that. Whether they would be successful at a Tribunal or not doesn't really matter for most businesses - the time and costs defending it still rack up and cause headaches - whether it's morally fair or not, it's not a policy I would be sanctioning where I work as it's got all kinds of potential headaches, whether legally defensible or not

Edited to say your dog analogy doesn't make sense , how would a none disabled person claim discrimiation?

To give you a real example where childlessness could be indirect discrimination - cancer is covered under the EA. If I've had my ovaries removed because I've had ovarian cancer and that's also the reason I don't have children then there's my link. Obviously it's a tiny risk because I doubt that applies to many ppl but i was answering the question on how childlessness could link to discrimination.

The far more obvious risks are age and sexual orientation. If I'm 20 and gay I'm significantly less likely to have children and obviously don't have grandchildren so best chance I have is 2 out of 4 categories, than a 40 year old straight person.

Like I don't know a single competent HR professional that round touch something like this with a barge pole - why take the risks, there's enough ppl on this thread saying they'd complain , like no thanks, don't want that on my desk regardless of any personal feelings on children having Christmas with their parents

To be honest, we’re a religious family so nothing will get in the way of us celebrating Christmas together (we also don’t live close to family so has it as one of the only times in the year we can travel home to see family, as most are off) so that’s not a specific life lesson they’ll be learning from me :)

I disagree with employers that assume child free (or more broadly, caring free) folk can be overly relied upon but there are cases when I do think we as a society need to consider what’s right and for me, that’s instances such as spending Christmas with young kids, getting back for last christmases. Clearly balanced with someone can’t always be priority, lovely Dave from IT can’t always be made to be on standby, work Christmas Day etc etc.

it just needs people to work together and do the right thing.

Agreed. IVF babies aren’t entitled to more quality family time than babies conceived the old fashioned way.

If you are religious about things like xmas, then don't get a job that involves working over that period.

TBF, now I think about it, that is why my colleague was probably allowed every xmas off despite the fact his kids were teens and he was not a single parent.
The religion card, and he kicked up a stink every year.

So as a religious family you also expect priority over Easter too?

That’s not fair at all, and the grandparents bit is ludicrous.
I do Christmas and New Year rotas every year and always put a sheet up for people to put their preference (and stress that it is a preference and not a guarantee) of which they would like to be off. If too many people want Christmas off, priority is given to those who worked it the previous year.
Everyone is entitled to spend time with their family at Christmas, not just those with children. Sometimes the older staff may be well aware that it may be the last they get with their parents. Often Christmas can sadly show just how selfish some colleagues can be.
Anyone who comes carping about not getting Christmas off when it’s their turn to work it is told that of course they don’t have to work it, as they are free to resign at any time.
If they choose to do this type of work, they know it’s a 24/7 need for every day of the year. And I may be the manager, but I work Christmas every year!

Indeed, I am pro choice, but what makes you think I’m not a parent?
And, even if I wasn’t, no law against parents being on here is there?

I didn’t. So not a problem for me.

I do however accept others may have no choice or limited choice in their jobs and for them think we should be considerate.

surely that’s what being a community is about? It can’t all be about ourselves

I think it’s fair actually. It is more important the under 7s are with their parents at Christmas. Childhood Christmases form lifetime memories. Really not the same for teens and adults. When I was single and pre kids I didn’t mind this either.

Hahaha. Your law band wagon again….

Anyone who wants time off at Christmas should have an equal chance of booking the time off, using a rota system if needed. Anyone might have a "special" Christmas once in a while - family visiting from abroad, a Christmas ski trip etc. If you are a working parent there are some sacrifices you just have to suck up I'm afraid, and not expect everyone else's life to be slightly less nice to accommodate yours.

Hahah, no answer have you? Keep laughing, I will keep doing what I do 🥰

Well your words were “a lot of us who are childless by choice”…. A good (wannabe) lawyer like yourself who has even the most basic understanding of English would know that means you’re not a parent.

Unless of course you’re a parent of a non-child which makes no sense… and before you say it: “of course the law require you to make sense” I know, I know

Yes, but year after year? He never worked xmas. I had to, or I was called in to cover him when it would have been my day off. If I complained... "well you don't have kids"... um, I was my parent's kid and I very much wanted to go and spend xmas with them instead of doing a shift and having a meal for one home alone because there was no public transport to get me to my parents anyway.

Thankfully, this nonsense had a stop put to it when a new manager started and saw what a piss taker he was.

Sorry, but the offspring of my colleagues is none of my business.