Lucy Letby - Specifically those who think she is guilty…

Do you have any particular mistakes in mind, or do you just mean we would always expect some mistakes?

I read the trial transcripts and believe her to be guilty.
People dont want to think that, as she's young and pretty.
She had a trial and the court found her guilty

She wasn’t that young, she was a 34 year old woman when convicted the same as I am now, she just came across as mummy and daddy’s little girl.
A mummy who was prepared to take the blame for her when she said “I did it, take me instead”

Why on earth would she put herself back in that system? Anyway, guilt or innocence aside, I don't think it's usual for people to come out of jail well adjusted and resilient and ready to work.

I wonder if people asked the same question about Sally Clark? Because the answer is pretty tragic - no, I wouldn't trust someone driven to drink themselves to death by a miscarriage of justice with my (hypothetical) children.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion about this case. I have worked in neonatal units and I think that her actions were very suspicious to say the least. The handover notes that she kept about babies in her care to start with. She claimed to have accidentally taken them home instead of destroying confidential information in the correct place. She claimed not to own a shredder but a working shredder was found in her home. The diary that she kept full of references to murder and the babies. Would anyone trust her to care for their newborn in view of the evidence. I know I wouldn’t. I think she was deeply troubled.

Have you thought about whether anti depressants, thyroid medication and training to stay calm in a life or death crisis might affect your responses?

Have you ever been at the scene of a tragedy or an accident, or even at a funeral, and noticed that some people are openly emotional, some are controlled, some are hysterical, some are frozen?

We know about fight, flight, freeze, fawn responses. I find it hard to predict my own response in advance. I wouldn't judge anybody else by theirs.

As a reserved person it really worries me the amount of people who think everyone innocent would be in hysterics for months and years constantly. She was taken in by the police multiple times but at each time she's supposed to act surprised and flip out. It's just not true that freezing and complying with the police is a sign of coldness and guilt.

Honestly she'd likely have to go into wittness protection if she was released!doubt shed want to go back to the NHS

Yeh first trial was ten months long and the jury deliberated for over 100 hours then there was a second trial on one of the charges . It was hardly hurried

The two juries weren’t independent because the
second was told they could take the first verdict into account, ie the question they looked at was ‘Do you think this serial killer is guilty of this murder too?’ rather than ‘do you think this evidence alone proves this random person is guilty?’
If the first case falls down the second automatically follows.

As for the evidence, the juries did not have special secret evidence that isn’t available to the experts like Shoo Lee’s panel who have reconsidered the case in the light of their expertise. On the contrary they lacked the evidence that has since emerged.

Most people I know who have concerns about the case, it’s not because they fancy themselves as amateur detectives but because of the vast number of people with genuine expertise in all the different areas who have concerns about.
The only amateur detective behaviour I have seen on this thread is the pop psychology stuff upthread.

The reasons this case should be reviewed are before the CCRC. That's fine.

The reasons to talk about this case and what it reveals about our justice system are not limited to the CCRC application and its outcome.

Exactly my thinking.

She is guilty, but no doubt mistakes were made during the gathering of evidence and in the trial.

I think there’s something very odd about her demeanour, she seems very quiet, a bit socially awkward and childlike on the outside and quite a people pleaser but that could be hiding some very deep resentment internally.

I don’t think she looks sweet and innocent, she is unusually calm and collected for someone wrongfully accused of these crimes.
She doesn’t seem shocked or mortified in the police interview at the accusations and just calmly answers questions and awaits her fate with a poker face.

I did read at the time many nurses saying they also take notes home in their uniform but to hoard so many of them like that is just odd behaviour.

She just seems cold and emotionless to me, if I was wrongly arrested for those things I’d be hyperventilating and passing out getting in the police car and throwing up and shaking in court in fear that they would think I was guilty and I would be getting life, screaming and crying at the injustice.

Dr Shoo Lee, a man of colour, not only gave this a second thought but has gone to some considerable effort to refute incorrect use of his research by the prosecution. Did you not know this, or do you just think he qualifies as an armchair expert and wouldn't have been interested if she were an Asian male like, erm, him?

I don't think people are saying that. They are saying that she has been found guilty more than once by a court of law and two different juries. They had information others don't. If there is genuinely new evidence that wasn't considered previously then her lawyers can apply to appeal if the evidence is conclusive she will be allowed to appeal.
What annoys me and many others are all the amateur detectives who have just decided she must be innocent. I wonder if there would be the same issue if the nurse concerned was a non white middle aged man.

Please cite the direct source for that to establish whether that was prosecution hypothesis / speculation or proven fact. As Google with those terms brings up nothing even when including trial transcripts in the search terms.

She was found guilty. If she wasn’t a young white woman, nobody would give a toss about any doubt in her conviction. If it had involved a man (or someone of colour) then nobody would give her a second thought.

And how do you think the families are going to feel? They have to see people pulling apart the facts about their children dying as if it’s a game.

I think it’s sick to have all the armchair experts weighing in.

I can't believe how many grown adults think that found guilty in court means they must be absolutely certainly guilty.
As if miscarriages of justice never happen?

Why don’t people listen to the actual court transcripts. She was going into the unit on her days off and was gaining access without scanning her id badge which was stated, scanning her id logs times and dates of entry. Not only that she was doing this early hours midnight / 2am. She was taking a back entrance and asked staff to let her in saying she had been sleeping all day and forgot something hence why she was turning up past midnight. It wasn’t a one off and staff became suspicious because she was then going into the rooms with babies. These were some of the times she was caught. She also admitted to administering medication and not signing it off or adding to the babies charts.

I agree with @TallSturdyGirls - wanting to be a 'fly on the wall' of a devastating murder trial is salacious and immoral. Most jurors needs counselling to cope with the upsetting evidence, but it seems you would relish it. People like you who enjoy feasting on others losses make me sick.

As a midwife do have an issue with this thought process.

Sometimes you do totally stand there as a baby is desaturating to see if the situation resolves without having to do anything. Briefly. But if someone walks in the room at the wrong time it might look like nothing is being done.

I remember a case of a resus team attending a crash call who accused the staff in the room of not doing anything when they entered the room. There was full cpr/resus going on with a defibrillator in situ which had just told everyone to stop cpr so it could analyse heart rhythm 🤷‍♀️. So in that split second people had stood back to wait.

Snd for Lucy Letby bear in mind that the doctor has now since been found to have not told the court or the police the truth. His initial statement said that Lucy Letby had rung him to come and see the baby. Why would she do that if she was killing it? Why did the doctor make up a load of rubbish that he just decided to pop in the room as he was suspicious of LL? Why did he say the alarm had been silenced (even if it had that’s not an issue if staff are attending and dealing with the situation, I’d turn an alarm off so I can think) when a different nurse who was in the room said the alarm was still going off.

Just to add that it’s very hard to prove a negative, it’s harder to prove you didn’t do something than it is to prove you did do something.

Other than saying she didn’t do it, I’m not sure what else she could have said

@Oftenaddled, I agree with you. There might very well be good reasons to review the system, but not an account of one particular case, which is not that different to many, but has made it into the media and public attention due to the dramatic circumstances.

How do you know it’s on her this crush on the doctor, it could have been his crush
It might, but he's not the one who has been accused of murdering babies. They had 100s of messages, but most concerning was him claiming she manipulated him for information about the babies she didn't have access too and him being sacked for agreeing to share it with her. That's a bit beyond a crush matter.

It's reasonable to worry about what might happen in MOJ cases when the person doesn't have any support or resources behind them, and would be even more so if you were advancing that as a point in its own right rather than trying to crowbar it into discussion about a person who does.

As such, there are charities you can support and raise awareness of.

https://appeal.org.uk/who-we-are/

https://www.insidejustice.co.uk/