Lucy Letby - Specifically those who think she is guilty…

It was certainly looking at the evidence in her defence, but that is only fair given that it wasn’t aired at her trial.

With a title like that I assume it was a fair and unbiased documentary....

I think there were many failures on the ward and i'm also inclined to think she is guilty , but these 2 factors together have got so intertwined that the waters are too muddied now and so i think the whole truth will never be known.
I feel that she is quietly 'waiting in the wings' of her own drama for all her supporters and conspiracy theorists to fight her corner until she gets another trial.
If she does get one then i believe she would be aquitted .
Her behaviour that we know about wasn't normal , if she didn't do it she certainly gave the impression that she was involved in something bizarre, but nothing has ever convinced me that she is completely innocent.

Link to the full press conference with Dr Shoo Lee the Canadian neonatologist whose paper on air embolism was (mis)used by Dr Evans - it's long but there's chapters. The panel analysed evidence for all the babies and found no murders.

Fair enough. No, I haven’t but I will look Dr Lee up. Definitely interested in hearing other views.

I saw Owen Jones posted about her alleged innocence too so FWIW I do accept all kinds of people have questioned her conviction.

Why would it be OK if this particular case happened to a Filipino nurse?

It maybe sounds like I’m being argumentative and I’m not but I genuinely don’t understand this argument at all. What is it trying to suggest?

There is possibly an argument that if this happened to one ordinary woman it could happen again but then it has, hasn’t it? Everyday people living everyday lives have horrendous events happen to them. That in itself isn’t news. So why do people keep triumphantly pulling this one out?

I expect you're right that if she weren't white British, some of the dregs of society would be off setting fire to something over it. But ultimately, a lot of the doubt in her guilt stems from experts who aren't themselves white. You've probably heard about Dr Shoo Lee's views and the panel he convened?

Agreed - and the assertion that "the only reason you're questioning this is because she's young/white/pretty".

I think the only people I've seen referencing her looks or personality are those convinced she's guilty.

Maybe because I watch true crime but I don’t think there’s anything remarkable that someone who looks like her is a serial killer of babies considering how so many mothers harm their own kids.

But I do wonder had she been a Filipino or Indian nurse would there be so many challenging the conviction? The answer is no. Many of the same people would indeed be using it as a justification for their anti-immigrant stance.

I haven’t looked into the evidence beyond what was initially presented so I may change my mind later but right now I still view her as guilty.

I do notice that those convinced of her guilt are fond of the simple statement.

’She was convicted of the crimes so she did them.’
’She said she did it, so I believe her.’
’She was convicted by two juries.’

It closes down further questions and some suggest further questions are disrespectful or a sign of a lack of intelligence.

I disagree and would even if I believed she was guilty. A robust case should withstand questioning and scrutiny.

Ah. Got it. 🙂

As I said, I don’t have a solid opinion on whether Letby is guilty, but I feel like if she is, there’s got to be something in her personal history that we aren’t aware of.

Yes that’s what I mean, sorry if I wasn’t clear.
He has pointed out those differences and said it is one of the reasons he thinks Letby is innocent (along with the police investigation built around confirmation bias rather than following proper procedure, and the complete lack of actual evidence).

I think the trial was always going to be heavily publicised because of the alleged crime. Alleged murder of seven babies was always going to be big news.

Why did numbers drop when Lucy Letby left the ward? Well, about the same time, the unit downgraded. They stopped taking very premature babies, multiples and babies with complicated histories during pregnancy. These children were no longer born at the hospital outside emergencies.

Meanwhile, emergency transport out of the hospital was improved. So even with less fragile patients, babies have died since. But they almost all have done that after being transferred to intensive care units elsewhere, because Chester no longer runs an intensive care unit.

There were unexplained deaths after she left. In the new documentary they interviewed a mum who lost her son in very strange circumstances and was not deemed to be critical, 6 months after LL left. Additionally, the unit had been dowgraded from a level two to a level one so they are unable to take more critical ill babies.

I think she’s guilty, I don’t know anyone who doesn’t.

One of the reasons she was able to continue for so long, and IMO that the trial was so publicised, is that she doesn’t “look” like a serial killer. I think this is one of the reasons subconsciously fuelling conspiracy theorists.

Why are there no excess baby deaths after she left?

I don't think there was a huge element of coincidence anyway. It was very predictable that a cheap band 5 nurse with a specialism in caring for intensive care cases would be used when the intensive care unit was unusually busy. It was very predictable that the death rate on the unit would rise when they started taking in more fragile babies. It is a shame that the police didn't allow the statistician they consulted to use the data she requested to analyze the events.

I missed the very important adverb, repeated coincidences.

How can you not believe in coincidences?

Beverley Allitt, as a child and teenager, had a long history of injuring herself for attention, once faking appendicitis and convincing a surgeon to remove her healthy appendix. That’s not a boring, normal background; that’s a pretty classic “Munchausen’s/Munchausen’s by proxy” type.

Lucy Letby has nothing similar in her childhood or adolescence, at least nothing that I’ve ever seen reported.

My tone is in no way no way rude in my voice, perhaps you judge others by yours, evidently by your use of exclamation points. The hospital was failing yes which could explain other babies cases. The babies LL was convicted of murdering however make her guilty in the eyes if the judge and jury from mountains of evidence.

Out of interest do pursue arguments against other convicted criminals or is it only this case?

Whether that conviction was fair or not is the issue in this case. Close examination of what was or wasn't presented in court might shake someone's faith in the system. Doubt as to whether there was any deliberate harm, when it's coming from a well respected medical panel is a pretty big stumbling block.

The spike in deaths in the unit was not due to LL leaving it was due to the unit being downgraded (there are three levels of neonatal care - the hospital was a level 2 and got down graded to a level 1. Because of this down grade they could not take in as many seriously unwell babies on the unit as before.

Well, that's rude! We are all entitled to our opinions and voice them. This conversation has been held over many years and many threads and I have read a lot of them and it always goes the same way.... burn the witch, she's evil, this happened and this -and then more reasonable (and intelligent) people come along and point out the inaccuracies and the details of what has now come to light

There were other deaths and events that they couldn't put on LL but just those alone put the hospital over the usual amount - but no one looked at those? The hospital was failing and many babies were damaged but where is the outrage for those families??

Because she’s been convicted in UK courts. I don’t believe in coincidences which is how I understand the contesting statisticians base their assertions.

I have given my opinion and I’d rather you didn’t challenge my view here if you wouldn’t mind. I appreciate its a discussion board however I find the whataboutery distinctly offensive and upsetting. I hope you can pursue your argument elsewhere.

Weird the way you haven't said what you think would happen if Letby had been ginger. Come on, the opportunity to be first is still wide open!