To absolutely hate this government, and what they are doing to our country? PART 2

This sort of argument would be addressed by the government releasing the data that demonstrates that your theory is true.

I think it’s important to consider why they are fighting the ICO decision that they should release the data.

If your theory is true it would take away a huge part of the objections from critics of mass migration wouldn’t it.

Also consider the data from countries like Denmark that shows exactly the opposite of your theory - men from a long list of countries where VWAG is very high are committing a high number of crimes per capita.

So many people so desperate to defend the actions of this government- why not just support them publishing the information?

Fucking hell.

Why do you keep mentioning reporting posts? How about thinking before you go ahead and press post, instead of sneering about responses.

Nothing. It’s a man carrying a child who could be asleep.

I expect that post mentioning the MS St Louis will be reported. I tried to word it carefully so as not to be accused of antisemitism by doing a direct comparison. I notice that posters who yell "FREE SPEECH" the loudest do appear to be the quickest to hit the report button. Usually those posters appear to be on the "right".

The story of that ship is terrible and horrific. And I totally agree it needs to be remembered. And taught. I am sorry if me posting it brought back any bad memories for you.

I think all this information goes into how we develop our own pictures of the world. And I think everyone should have as big a camera as possible to take that picture. Not be stuck with a 5MP phone camera.

Of course you would, what is wrong with you.

Then if you can only see this system as viable if numbers go up tensions will too and chaos and risk to those crossing.

But I don’t think anyone is denying the tragic failures and horrendous human cost of current migration routes. The Government certainly aren’t.

But that is not an excuse for the demonisation, othering and mob violence we are seeing against not only the people making those journeys - but now, also, the people trying to save their lives.

I also don’t think it’s a reason for military aggression or turning navy ships on migrants, in a way that would only exacerbate the situation.

It is a stark reminder that refugees are people and include children.

Good job I'm not so cold hearted as some who make a great job at pretending to be otherwise then.

No image of dead children is less harrowing.

You wouldn’t know that if it wasn’t for the context.

When you have children shouting "let them drown" at those protests, it is important to remember that it happens.

That image was one of the less harrowing.

I never gave it a thought to report. What I don't accept is your assumption that I want the boats sunk. It's a low blow, especially in line with the photo of a dead child. Does that give your moral superiority a nice boost?

Yes, a dead child.

@LuckyHazelFoxhasn’t posted about ‘sinking boats’.

They do sink though or rather people die trying. Especially women and children, although a man died this week trying to make it.

It’s not a good system. Plus it is poor at identifying risk.

I thought you were pro "sinking the boats".

I did consider clipping a picture and posting it with sensitive ticked. But I thought no, this is a newspaper article, and the pictures were on near every front page in the free world.

I paused before clicking post, and I thought, it was on the front page then, and I still cry for that little boy, and really, he should still be on the front page now. To remind people of how he stopped the world, and how too many people now want him forgotten and brushed under the carpet. For whatever reason it is they have.

Do you accept my reasoning? Or have you reported ?

But I do think it’s important that we see images like this. Because when mobs shout “let them drown” and attack the RLNI for saving lives at sea, that is what they are advocating for.

Taking all politics out of it, I do think it’s important to remember we are talking about real human beings.

@RedTagAlan I actually know the story of the M S St Louis well, for personal reasons, and so find the comparison both very apt and very sobering.

Why not? It’s a man carrying a child.

Well I didn't really want to see that picture so thanks for the trigger warning.

Very well put.

And I think much what you say can be joined to what I have just posted today, with some gaps filled in by expanding some things.

Many people in general, living in these impoverished oppressive states, have had generations of indoctrination and censorship. And for anyone who wants to break free of that, the local gang lords are right there ready, with their stories of "streets paved with gold" to sell them. The very stories that Farage etc broadcast.

This reminds me of the Morcombe Bay cockers tragedy. I was talking to a Chinese national about it not long after, and they said the victims mostly came from the same small poor area in China. And what happened is one or two people had "escaped" to the west, sent money home to the family, The family had built mansions with that money, and the neighbours said " Oh, how did you manage that". And a whole trafficking industry from that area was spawned.

And as that story unfolded, it turned out what I had been told was true. And it was the UK police and Government, working with their Chinese counterparts, who shut down that specific industry in that specific area. Arrests were made people convicted, and the UK introduced new gang master laws. And China expanded their own gang smashing operation all over.

And the thing is, the Cockle Picker story is connected to the Migration Watch FOI thing. Because although China is not seen as a "friendly nation" as such, the Governments do need to work together to try to solve things. And when you have a segment of the political class yelling for total visa bans, that would likely antagonize the very nations that Government are trying to work with, no matter how limited that working together is.

It is my firm belief that Farage and palls have no interest at all in helping solve these issues. They want to make it worse. Because they benefit from it politically. It is their only path to power.

I read this logic a lot, but can you not see that you’re conflating two completely different things? Culture and individual personality are not the same.

Culture consists of socially learned norms, attitudes and behaviours. It does not determine someone’s innate personality, their moral character or individual propensity to commit sexual violence. Think about it - two people raised within exactly the same culture can have radically different personalities and behaviours. So even though you can argue that particular attitudes towards women are more prevalent within certain cultures (you will certainly get no arguments from me about that), you can't just transfer those characteristics onto every individual who comes from those cultures. I'm amazed this even needs explaining.

As an example, the US has a much stronger gun culture and a substantially higher homicide rate than the UK. But you wouldn’t be on here arguing that Americans in Britain are more likely to murder someone because 'culture.' You would need evidence showing that Americans living in the U.K. actually are murdering at higher rates before making that claim - as far as I know there is no evidence of this. If this still needs stating, a news article or any number of emotive articles or anecdotes about Americans who actually have murdered people in the U.K. (because of course there will be some) is not what I mean by 'evidence.' Anyone can find articles or anecdotes to back up any agenda.

There is also a fundamental problem in assuming that migrants are representative of the societies they have left. Why would you assume this? If anything, they are likely to be less conforming or they left precisely because they reject aspects of the society they came from. If you were in the Taliban 'establishment' or on the right side of them, why would you flee a society where you have power? I'm sure you realise that the millions live in terror because are deemed not on the right side of the Taliban - it doesn't take much. This is why they put their lives in the hands of these terrible people smugglers. Do you really think the majority people in Iran are fans of the regime there? Really? Just be glad you don't have to make the life choices some people have to make. Would your innate character be different if you happened to have been born in Iran? Or would you be the same person, just in Iran?

This is not to say that all migrants will be delightful members of society. In any group, there will be some bad actors. I am not here to defend rapists ffs - why would I be? I'm not here to defend any men from anywhere, quite the opposite in fact. I'm just here to try to defend against hypocrisy and insidious racist stereotyping where I see it, because it's dangerous and I think we should be better than this. That's it. Otherwise we're not a great nation at all, are we.

I posted a link to an article that had a similar story that was being discussed, and my comment "People do see many things in different ways"., and from that one comment, you deduced that I don't " get the full picture "?

I think you have made a few leaps of logic there. I should have expanded sorry. It's an observation on how different media can, and does, shape opinion. And perhaps how it can reinforce existing prejudices.

Do you remember Aylan Kurdi ? The little boy whose death, for a little while, stopped the world. I do. And it stopped me in my tracks. And for lots of people, including me, I am still stopped in my tracks over those photos. And it appears a lot of media sources maybe are too. And lets throw in this thing called compassion, and an ability to see a much bigger picture. A global picture.

Alan Kurdi: Did the photo of a dead child on a beach change anything? | News World | Metro News

Quote " It does beg the question why would a parent risk their children's lives with this dangerous crossing."

I think to answer that, I won't say " because English is the most taught language", but I will try to paint a bigger picture.

Imagine you are in far off land. A family member is maybe being hunted for political, conscription, or religious reasons. Or maybe you are desperate to escape poverty. To want a better life. To get away, get a job to send money home to loved ones. Maybe to try to get settled, and hope loved ones can join you later.

So you call in the local fixer who can arrange things. And he shows you newspaper articles etc to try to sell you a product. And remember, the fixer wants to make as much money as possible.

What newspapers articles will he show ? How about GB news or the like. Farage on the front page, headlines are " UK has open borders", "Migrants get free money, free houses, 4 star hotels, free medical, chain migration".

What product will those grandparents, extended family etc decide to buy ? And who will they send ?

Do you think if Farage and palls really cared about migration, the best thing for them to do is to stand on a world soapbox and yell mistruths and lies so loudly that they can be heard by people in persecuted and impoverished communities worldwide ? Or should he maybe tone it down a little, so he is not helping the traffickers sell their product?

That is the big picture I see. Can you see the same picture as me ?

Goodness me. You are really stuck on this semantics thing aren't you ?

I am still waiting for this extensive list of " all I got wrong".

As a matter of interest, on semantics, do you agree that the Tribunal is not an open court ? As in, that if caught speeding or whatever, the Tribunal is not where where will end up as you fight against the points and fine.

Spot on post.

And it's not as if we don't have lessons from history about what can happen when groups of people are "othered" or singled out. Especially at Government level. The labour Party, and I the Tories before them, are fully aware of history when it comes to refugees. The Tories being aware might explains why Robert Jenrick was not pushing all the data out when he was at the Home Office, but it pushing for it all now, given that he has outed himself as "far right", my migrating to a different party.

The story of the M.S. St. Louis is one example. What a sad story, and a stain on the nations of freedom

A Ship of Jewish Refugees Was Refused US Landing in 1939. This Was Their Fate | HISTORY

The Tories are not my cup of tea, but I can say with total confidence, that as a party, they are not cold hearted basta- like a couple of Parties are. The Parties that really only have one policy, immigration.

Anecdotally, I post on the Iran war threads. And I notice a Venn diagram overlap for posters who are very much in the "bomb them " camp, who are also in the "no refugees" circle. The Tories however, are fully aware that people fleeing danger and persecution need refuge. Ukraine and Hongkong come to mind. Add to that Iranians and Afghans and many more. They were fully aware that many people genuinely needed help. And that these groups should not be collectively thrown to the wolves because of some "bad people", for want of a better term.

And if we take this Venn diagram, with it's two circles so far. " bomb them" and " no refugees", and we add a third circle. " Islamophobic", the overlap between all three will be significant.

And if we drop a "racist" circle on to, I would not be surprised if that was fully contained within the other 3 circles described above.

Like on so many other things, the "..phobes" will jump on any issue that suits their agenda, and amplify it.