State pension

One thing I can't get my head around is there are only so many jobs.
Keeping people working until 68 means less jobs and opportunities for young people entering the job market.

Lots of people stay at the same level for most of their working life, ie workers, tradespeople.
Some climb the ladder but their old job leaves a space at the bottom. Bit like every house chain has a first time buyer at the bottom.

Lots of entry jobs are already gone, things like admin assistants, office juniors etc.
Keeping people in work longer must be making it harder for young people

That and many work places are ageist.

Jobs are not a finite resource.

Of course. You'd need a DC pension pot of £500k to get £20k a year and the average DC pot on retirement is about £130k. £20k a year might sound like nothing to those with DB schemes, but it’s huge.

It is not a big income by any stretch of any imagination.

It would be an administrative nightmare to means test state pension.

First off, what means would you be testing? The income? The 'pot'? Do you test the means of the individual or the household? How do you treat carer/care home fees?

Is means testing going to need to be done annually? Who is going to fill out the forms for people who are no longer able to do them for themselves? Keep in mind that there can be a long gap between cognitive decline starting and any sort of official diagnosis.

They are in a shrinking economy with an ever increasing min wage ( i don't disagree with a min wage per se but if it is too high employers just cut down on staffing as we are seeing presently)

They kind of are, my teenagers had no problems getting key worker jobs during covid when alot of people didn’t want to go out the house

But it’s a far higher percentage of working people and higher still for those in professional jobs.

We already means test the winter fuel allowance, free childcare, child benefit, tax free personal allowance, universal credit and some other benefits. None of which are an administrative nightmare!

Previous poster made a very good point about older people often suffering cognitive decline, years before any formal diagnosis.
Making filling in forms difficult.

We moved away from basic pension and income support topups for a reason

Nobody wants to return to the 80s and old people being advised to wear woolly hats and coats indoors.

Lots of wealthier old people have to submit self assessments tax returns, ie income over £50k, or larger amounts of interest and dividends over their tax free allowances or to claim gift aid tax relief or to declare buy to let income. Means testing would be at a relatively high income level and many/most of those affected would be completing self assessment tax returns anyway. If they are suffering cognitive decline they’ll already be getting help with their sa return, ie friends or family, accountant, IFA, etc.

But we're currently subsidising old people to heat entire half empty houses, whilst struggling to meet our energy needs and destroying the planet in the process. There has to be a middle ground.
Just giving more more more isnt a reasonable solution.

Nail on the head. We need to start thinking out of the box rather than the answer always lazily being more money. Same with the NHS money pit.

Well see how your ideology ends up turning out or maybe read a few book: before you advocate reinventing a square wheel

No it isn't. It rises to 18% for the working population. So over 80% don't have private healthcare.

We also know means testing will start at a high level, only affect the very wealthy until like other things the rate sits still for decades , look at higher rate taxes it used to only be a few that paid 40% tax.

Can I ask how this response relates to me questioning your claim that to earn a good salary you just need to 'work a bit harder'?

Moving house is such an expensive thing to do, stamp duty, legal fees, etc. Plus the actual hassle factor that many elderly people can't be bothered with.

People are also having families later, kids are staying at home longer. The years between empty nest and old age are going to become increasingly short, ie you have your kids in in your 20s, by the time your mid 60s they are 30s.
If you aren't having kids until 40, you are 70. before they are 30.

My private pension is only about £15k, if I had known it will be means tested, I wouldn't have bothered saving, as it is, I shall probably get a 10 year warning that this will happen so will be able to spend/gift some before then.

There absolutely aren't 'only so many jobs'.

If you think the number of jobs and the amount of money in the UK are fixed, then the purpose and/or consequences of almost all government policies will go completely over your head.

You can think of it as spirals, which can spiral up or spiral down:

Increasing jobs and wealth spiral through keeping experienced workers:
People with high levels of capability and experience keep working in the uk (not retiring or moving abroad) -> business chooses right profit-increasing initiatives and implements them successfully -> business makes more profit (and pays more tax) -> business opens more of it's operation in UK / invests more money in production-growing infrastructure / employs more people -> high value jobs are available for people with high levels of capability and experience, pays them well and makes them feel appreciated -> People with high levels of capability and experience keep working in the uk (not retiring or moving abroad) -> and continue the spiral above

Decreasing jobs and wealth spiral through losing experienced workers:
People with high levels of capability and experience retire/reduce hours or move abroad -> business can implement fewer initiatives or initiatives fail through lack of capability/expertise -> business makes less profit (and pays less tax) -> business viability goes down -> business closes operations in UK / holds back on investment / reduces or doesn't add jobs -> fewer high value jobs are available for people with high levels of capability and experience, or pays them less -> People with high levels of capability and experience retire/reduce hours or move abroad -> and continue the spiral above

And these spirals play out for all sorts of other choices. People who shout for businesses to pay more tax with seemingly no understanding of the consequences (eg Angela Rayner) should be more aware of these spirals:

Increasing jobs and wealth spiral for business viability:
UK people work more and create more value -> economy grows -> businesses sell more and government tax regime gives them confidence in the viability of the business -> business opens more of it's operation in UK / invests more money in production-growing infrastructure / employs more people -> UK people work more and create more value -> and continue the spiral above

Decreasing jobs and wealth spiral for business viability:
economy weakens -> poor government policy may consider increasing business tax and regulation 'to help people' (hello, Labour!) -> businesses sell less due to worsening economy and also make less profit due to increased tax and regime -> business viability goes down -> business closes operations in UK / holds back on investment / reduces or doesn't add jobs -> UK people work less and create less value -> economy weakens -> and continue the spiral above

I actually think the fundamental difference between Labour and Conservative policy is that the Conservatives concentrate pretty hard on getting onto the 'Increasing jobs and wealth' spirals and avoiding the 'Decreasing jobs and wealth' spirals... whereas Labour behave as though they don't exist.

None of that really changes anything though. Throwing money at it hadn't solved anythjng. We spend more than ever before on pensions and benefits, and demands just keep on growing. At some point we have to make changes and people will have to make choices. Empty bedrooms vs having the heating on is one example of those choices.

Your missing my point, if it costs £10k to move house. And actually the cost of getting another house to where people want it is probably higher than £10k if you include work on the garden or kitchen.

Thats an lot of heating bills, especially with central heating and thermostatic radiator valves. It would take years to actually break even between the cost of moving and the savings made on heating a smaller house.

Many might have kids at home until they are 70s, yes they might live another 10-20 years but really are they?

My interpretation is that she's pointing out that taking that approach is basically communism: not rewarding individual effort, because the person is just 'lucky' to be able to succeed, so all the output of their hard work should be shared out between everyone.

And if you read about communism in the USSR, 20th century China, Cuba, Venezuela... it always, always results in terrible outcomes for everyone.

It isn't coincidence - it's a structural result of communism (and socialism is partway to communism), despite it's surface-level appeal.

The only communist countries which don't cause material suffering for the whole population are the ones which only use the name 'communist' in their name but are actually just a one-party system which applies capitalist economic policies (eg Vietnam and modern-day China). These do still have abuses due to their one-party nature, but at least the economics work.