State pension

I don't think it's really fair to just fold NI into tax, but then say that everyone from that point onwards - despite paying the exact same total tax - doesn't get a pension.

I suppose it would be fairer if they actually removed NI, and then tapered the state pension recieved in retirement depending on how many years NI had been paid. Ie someone with 35 years NI contributions gets the full state pension, someone with 12 years NI contributions (and they don't pay any more once it stops - but also don't get the stamp) will only get 1/3 state pension.

I still think that would be a spectacularly bad idea though, since there would inevitably still be significant means tested payments, which makes a huge disincentive to saving.

And as a pp said, anyone who has enough pension for an income of about £60k already effectively gets no state pension, since they pay as much tax as the state pension is. 'No state pension' will fall at £54k if Labour add NI payments for pensioners.

That's not far off the £45k for a single pensioner / £62k for a couple which is considered necessary for a 'comfortable' retirement- especially if one member of a couple has a much bigger pension than the other.

And that will get even worse, as frozen tax thresholds continue to bite.

We're not talking millionaires here. Someone with just enough money for a 'comfortable' retirement already effectively isn't given any money by the state, they just get let off paying some income tax.

No additional means testing is needed.

That is how an increasing number of people are feeling, frozen tax thresholds, tax cliff edges and a paring down of universal benefits are pissing more people off than then government realises

Thank you, part of a decent welfare system is giving a bit of a helping hand to people at certain pinch points of their lives, when they’re raising children, disabled, elderly, unemployed,maternity, widowhood, homeless, disabled etc. I mean who would be happy to pay into a health insurance system which said well you’ll only get any benefits from the system if you earn the minimum wage, sorry but people just wouldn’t bother and just donate a much smaller amount of money altruistically so other people don’t starve. A certain level of universal benefits for anyone at certain pinch points in life was one of the key proven principles of an accepted welfare system. Politicians forget that principle at the peril of the entire welfare system

Basically, if you're a hard working tax payer, you'll just get fucked over by the government amd pay for everyone else......

Simply scrap NIC and raise income tax instead. Scrap the basic state pension with effect from 40 years' time. From that date, all you get is means tested pension credit. Should have done it a few decades ago, probably mid 80s when personal pension schemes were introduced, but better late than never.

Child benefit should be universal as it was in the past and still is in many countries.

Working hard, earning, and paying the huge amount of tax due isn't selfish. The opposite.

Being pissed off at not getting state services which were previously universal in the UK, and still are now in more civilised countries (like child benefit, subsidised childcare, pension...) isn't selfish.

Not paying much tax, having your hand out for money other people earned, and then expecting them to get less than you... now that is selfish.

This was me absolutely, late 40s, when have been able to afford to I’ve put what I can into a private pension and work part time in the public sector so pay into that pension too but both were only every meant as small top ups to the state pension. I would of made very different life decisions i.e career, children etc if I would of known the state pension wouldn’t be in existence

I would say that in order to pull the state pension fairly it would have to be from those that haven't started contributing to their NI yet as there would need to be a big overhaul of that to reflect the changes.
If they did it now that would mean anyone born after 2010 I guess?

The foolish ones will be those on low wages who've paid into a modest private pension, and get nothing from the state in old age whereas those who paid nothing get pension credit or some other benefit to keep them from destitution.

I worked in a factory in the QC department when these first came in, the smallish private company had never had a pension before, the office workers and QC department all were pleased about it but many of the factory workers on MW didn't want to pay this pension even though the company paid a portion, they just saw their take home weekly pay as less.

@Badbadbunnythe employer contributions are often a pittance & many younger people need the cash now.

Only the foolish would opt out given the high likelihood of no automatic state pension in a few decades time. Why would you opt out when effectively you're benefitting from "free money" paid by the employer and tax relief on your own contributions. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

The workplace pensions are only compulsory for the company to pay them if you don't opt out. It is not compulsory for employees to have one, they can opt out.

Apologies, the poster I quoted did state compulsory workplace pensions came in over a decade ago, not im the 90s.
But the rest of my point stands.
There is a generation of 40/50 year olds, too young to benefit from gold plated final salary pensions, and too young to benefit at the start from compulsory workplace pensions, and a significant lack of education as to what was happening at the time. You can see this by looking at the average private pension pots in those age ranges.

Also consideration needs to be given for the fact of people agreeing to pay NI and then finding they are not going to get what they thought they were paying for. Not so bad if you’ve only paid in for 5 years but a bit more unfair if you’ve paid in for 20 years. People say well you don’t have a choice about paying it, that’s not strictly true, we get charged such a ridiculously high rate of marginal income tax that we have very consciously decided to take the extra free time over working even more hours to pay for most of it to go in taxes

Compulsory workplace pensions came in in 2012, not in the 90s, for large work places for smaller ones in 2018. People will base their retirement plans on getting the state pension rather than listening to people scaremongering that it won't be available when they come to retire.

If the government want to means test it, or increase the age that it is received. Fair warning has to be given.

So someone who bought their house when it when houses were much cheaper or had a huge family contribution towards their mortgage so has a lot more disposable income then us deserves it but not us. I understand a lot of benefits do have to be means tested otherwise the system would be sustainable but making the previously universal child benefit means tested has felt like a slap in the face and you can say what you like but while I still have a vote

So we can take money off of children because we decide their parents are "privileged". But pensions must never be touched no matter how much money they may have for....reasons?

Private pensions came into being mid 80s, compulsory workplace pension schemes over a decade ago. People have had plenty of notice and opportunity to make their own provisions.

You may not see it as selfish but it is selfish. If your child benefit has been 'taken off you' then your household must have above average earnings. You are privileged.

As a side issue, I don’t think it’s unusual to have work private health insurance. The large finance company I used to work for provided at as a perk for all employees at all levels and now I work for the public sector and don’t have it directly, I have access via DH’s job as in engineering/environmental consulting. Not says every private sector jobs offers it obviously but if you work for a large private sector company then it’s not unusual.

The National Insurance Fund is a real fund which is invested in gilt-edged securities, and which pays out the state pension and benefits. It operates on a pay as you go basis, but has to keep a working balance recommended by the Government Actuary. Over the years, various ways have been found to raid the NI Fund, including scrapping a large annual Treasury supplement and by making a regular contribution to the running of the NHS. Despite these attempts to suppress the amounts available for benefits and the state pension, there is a regular annual surplus well in excess of the recommended working balance.

In March 2025, the balance in the NI fund was £79.3 billion, significantly above the required minimum working balance of £24.2 billion. This situation occurs year after year. As at March 2024 the balance was £86.4 billion and as at March 2023, £72.9 billion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance_Fund

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-fund-accounts

Really? You must live in a very well off area compared to me. I don’t have a work private healthcare insurance. I work in a professional medical field treating patients. I actually pay for my own private health insurance but I’ll likely have to drop it next year as it’s becoming unaffordable. I currently pay £78 a month. I’ve got friends who work in office jobs, supermarkets, and small businesses. None of them have private healthcare. One friend earns 150k for a huge multi national company and she has it. But it really isn’t standard in my friends. My husband has a basic private healthcare through his job but it won’t cover any pre existing conditions. All self employed people won’t have work insurance (or the lovely workplace pensions). It’s only really “standard” in your large company. As a % of the population there will be many who do not have that benefit.

I don't think it's selfishness. It's boundaries.

Most people are pretty happy to help those who genuinely need it, in the context of a positive reciprocal society.

But when you feel mugged, and then despised by those you're helping, you reach a point where you're no longer willing to help.