To wonder if Jesus Christ is swearing

I would say I tend towards thinking there’s something good at the heart of most religions, but that as usual humans tend to mess that up/ interpret it for their own ends.

I’m a bit undecided about why I think / believe - and I don’t know enough a lot of it - but am actively thinking about it a lot of the time, rather than being an undecided who isn’t trying to decide! I also think it’s a fascinating subject to discuss!

It's a fascinating history.

Christianity in Ireland was a very different beast to christianity in many other cultures. Because of our polytheistic culture and the way in which the deities were woven into every day life, imposing a single god was never going to catch on. So loads of the gods/goddesses were converted in to saints, St Brigid being the most famous of these. She was a triple deity and was a major part of Irish life. St Brigid's day lines up with Imbolc, the pagan Spring festival. Holy wells, mountains etc became associated with saints rather than the original goddess/god.

The Tuatha Dé Danann became the Aos Sí (fairies). Associated piseogs (superstitions) carried on in to modern times. For example, it was disastrous to cut down a solitary hawthorn tree as it is believed to be a direct gateway to the Otherworld and the property of the Aos Sí. Even today, people would be reluctant to cut one down just in case. There is actually a kink in one of our motorways built this century that was done to avoid cutting down a hawthorn.

It is according to my mum! But my friend who is a priest says Jesus all the time. Someone once said it was acknowledging your need for him. So that’s my take on it.

@BrezhnevsLuxuriantEyebrows all these stories written down over the centuries by monks and then the Bible in use today the King James version - that great protector of women.

Shakespeare? the printing press had been invented by the time he was on the scene. He wasn't some women hating, sexually frustrated, sadist writing his hand me down stories wearing his sackcloth and ashes.
Do I believe William Spearshaker wrote all his own plays that's another thread.

@BeanNaGealai

I'm a polytheist and it's the deities of Celtic cultures (Irish, Welsh, Old Brittonic) that most interest me, and are the ones with whom I have the most interest in communicating. Manannan holds something of an appeal to me, as does Donn (probably due to his association with the dead) and some of the Welsh gods and goddesses.

Or maybe your version of having your faith guide your way of living is different to other people's. It’s incredibly sanctimonious and patronising to suggest anyone who doesn't practice exactly like you do is just 'compartmentalising' it.

In Ireland, language and faith are tied up historically, going back to our polytheistic Celtic roots. Using these names is just culturally normalised here when you're shocked or angry.

People can, and do, have a deep faith that guides their lives and still use these names in a way you might not like.

How can you possibly know and confidently assert that as truth, though? Shakespeare's plays were written half a century ago, so do you also believe that they have been massively distorted from what he actually wrote?

Yes, I know they've never been viewed as religious/sacred texts, but they would have been controversial - scandalous, indeed - at the time when they were written, and have had a huge enduring influence on people's understanding and views on the world, as well as on the language that we speak to this day.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I think Jesus existed and believe a number of the sayings attributed to him are probably correct. I'm open-minded on at least some of his purported abilities - I'm not a Christian, but I am a pagan and occultist, so I believe that spiritual/magical abilities are real and possible.

I'm also a polytheist who believes that all gods and goddesses from all pantheons exist. I don't see the Abrahamic God as being particularly special, and he's not my favoured one, so whether Jesus is an extension of him or not is largely irrelevant to me. When it comes to how I feel about what Jesus allegedly preached, for me, it's a bit of a mixed bag. I disagree with/am not a fan of some of it and would not choose to live according Jesus' ideals per se.

I suppose we have no real way of knowing now. All I would think is that it wasn't necessarily studied as an academic subject, but it was a main part of their everyday culture and lives - even though many of the ordinary folk may not have been able to read, they would surely have spent a lot of time in the synagogue and listening to their rabbis. Yes, everyday life was very hard; but they didn't have a lot in the way of entertainment and distractions as we do now.

I doubt that God would have chosen somebody who wasn't committed to her faith and/or clueless about the prophecy. Mary's response certainly strongly suggested that she had known of the Messiah's prophesied impending arrival - and her main surprise was not that it was happening, but that SHE had been chosen out of all women.

Yes, there are debates on the etymology and correct reading... however, in context, if it had just meant to say young woman, how would that actually be remarkable; much less a sign from God? Any woman could have become pregnant in the usual way, liked the name Immanuel and given it to her new baby, and thus become a prophetic 'sign' from God?!

As you say, her immediate response was to ask how it could be possible. I know they didn't have the internet and a state school system then, but I'm sure she would have known how babies were usually conceived and wouldn't have asked that question if she had done what people generally know will frequently lead to a baby - especially in a time when there's no such thing as (reliable) contraception... and I doubt that any of the women of her time who became pregnant in the normal would have needed an angel to come and tell them what would very probably happen soon if they were sexually active!

This must be massively wishful thinking, but there must have been a guy who said a lot of the things Jesus is reported to have said and about whom a lot of the key events are true, as the message was incredibly revolutionary at the time.

It still is now tbh in the sense that very few people actually live by the teachings attributed to Jesus in the gospels. Usually only a distorted version that is more like the people he opposed.

So hard to think that a bunch of people came up with the same story and attributed it to a made up guy for their own ends. Or even if they did, the message is still an incredible and revolutionary one.

None of this is to say one way or the other about whether you believe Jesus was god or not, but it’s definitely a story worth taking notice of.

the eyewitness stories and written accounts from the time have been massively distorted over the centuries to suit others agendas. ye that's true.

Personally I don't think it's swearing. However, I wouldn't say it (loudly) on the school run. Of course if you're pushed to the edge sometimes it might slip out. I have definitely muttered a swear word under my breath when the kids won't cooperate and it's a challenging morning.

I don't feel too strongly about sweet words as they're just words and expressions. However, there is a time and place for them.

That is also true.

Either way, Mary’s virginity isn’t something the early apostles made a thing about at all. The Apostle Paul never even mentions it in his letters.

Although presumably the education of such young women in scriptural matters was quite limited?

The Hebrew word that has been translated as ‘virgin’ can also just mean ‘young woman’, I remember from my theological study.

Mary was certainly taken aback at the idea that she could get pregnant as a virgin, when the angel told her what was going to happen.

What about Isaiah 7:14?

And juxtaposed with Daniel 9:24-27, which gave a very specific prophetic timeframe for when the Messiah would be born - spoken of and passed down for generations - so that when that time finally arrived, I'm guessing that there was probably a hope amongst many of the young women of the day that they might just be the one chosen to give birth to him?

Good point!

I also don’t think other denominations other than Catholicism believe that Mary remained a virgin after having Jesus and many believe he may have had younger brothers and sisters.

Absolutely nobody is expecting you personally to believe or adhere to any tenets of any faith. A respectful person would probably frame it as 'their beliefs' (with the clear message that they certainly don't share them themselves) rather than as 'fairy tales', but a lot of people do seem to derive pleasure from mocking and goading people who follow different life paths.

Well obviously they do them; but it seems strange to me for anybody to devoutly embrace a faith/belief system and to want to use the name of the central figure as the equivalent of a swear word - especially when the book explicitly tells you not to - or are you saying they do sincerely invoke the names in a 'please help me/give me strength' way, rather than just shout them in anger when they miss the nail and whack their thumb with a hammer?

Then again, I suppose 'devout' means different things to different people; for many people, their faith instinctively guides their whole way of living and thinking, but for others, maybe they diligently follow the rituals, celebrate the festivals and go to the meetings, but it's a specifically compartmented factor of their lives? I don't know.

Actually that isn’t the point of Mary’s virginity, though there’s no doubt it’s been used that way by the Catholic Church historically. The point about her virginity is that Jesus didn’t have an earthly father at all, Mary became pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (As is explained to her by the Angel Gabriel.)

Mary didn’t even remain a virgin afterwards according to the Gospel of Matthew. She and Joseph had a normal marriage and had other children.

Curiously, apart from in the 2 birth narratives (in Matthew and Luke’s Gospels), the Bilble has nothing else to say about the virgin birth.

I’ve always considered saying Jesus Christ, Oh My God etc. to be swearing.

We understand, don’t we, that the Life of Brian set up about women in that time and location regularly being raped by Roman soldiers, and so that being what people would have likely thought, is based on the historical reality of that time and place?

Not saying that was what actually did happen - I wasn’t there - but that would have been at least one of the “go to” conclusions for anyone living at that time. And they might well have blamed the woman for that.

I’d quite enjoy that thread!

If there were such a figure (personally I’m an undecided, trying to work out what I do think about it all!), I can imagine they would be swearing at the state of the world.

Especially some of the god awful (excuse the pun) people claiming to be their followers… which I would apply to the supposed followers of several religions…. Being the ones I know about…

(I mean they probably wouldn’t exist in linear time, sitting and watching events unfold, but ykwim!)

Ah so were back to the realm of fairy tales again. I wonder why so much emphasis is put on female virginity as a basis for religions