If you were previously on the fence about Lucy Letby’s guilt, have the Thirlwall findings swayed you either way?

People are vile for accepting the verdict of the court, as opposed to only accepting it when it confirms their own (largely misinformed) views? Interesting take.

She is unusually fortunate in that at least 20 experts plus her lawyer are volunteering their time free because of their concerns about the case. They are listed - along with others who have taken a public position on the case, at https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php/Lucy_Letby:_those_experts_in_full

For many prisoners, there is no legal representation when they are applying to the CCRC and they have to put the application together themselves.

Back in 2002 I had a lecturer talking about a similar, an intensive care nurse who was on duty when people died. Lecturer went though how statistically it was probable that pattern was seen. And we are still having the same conversation. Why has this piece of understanding been dropped?

I have no opinion on the case, I haven't reviewed the evidence.

Tbh I was surprised the crime prosecution service was even going forward with the trial when I saw her pictures in the paper as I thought she would get off. I didn’t believe the jury would see a young pretty white blonde blue eyed nurse as a murderer.I was really shocked that the jury found her guilty and thought they must’ve been really convinced to make that call.

I find it much easier to believe that the hospital’s incompetence and dysfunction allowed a crime to happen repeatedly without intervention, than I do believing that there was an increase in baby deaths in a pattern with Letby’s shifts purely due to a load of background factors NOT involving Letby. The concerns about her at her previous post feed I to that, too.

She might be white, she might not be overweight, but she’s definitely not pretty @FreshJalapenos. I take your point re poc or obese people and it’s not fair that people are judged in this way, but come on! Pretty she’s not.

What concerns about her previous post?

This is what I always think when people say ‘people only think she’s innocent because she’s white and pretty’. Obviously beauty is subjective but I always think ‘pretty?’

I read enough about the trial to have doubts about the process before I knew what she looked like.

Not everyone is that superficial, and skin/hair colour is not generally admissible in court.

I think she looks rather chilly & gormless, but that means nothing at all in terms of evidence for or against her having done what she was charged with.

I think she is guilty. But I can see why folk who think she is innocent don't see the point of that enquiry. But in spite of all the protests and experts it doesn't seem to me that she is anywhere near being released or even being granted a retrial.

That’s good. I’m not sure either way but I’m glad she has a team.

It's Dewi Evans (Dewi is Welsh for David).

There weren't 13 deaths in one year.

2011: 3 deaths (out of 514 admissions)

2012: 3 deaths (out of 556 admissions)

2013: 2 deaths (out of 460 admissions)

2014: 3 deaths (out of 557 admissions)

2015: 8 deaths on the unit (plus 2 babies born at the Countess who died after being transferred to other hospitals)

2016: 5 deaths on the unit in the first six months alone (plus 4 total transfer deaths across 2015–2016)

2017–2018: Following the unit's downgrade in July 2016 (stopping intensive care and care for babies under 32 weeks gestation), on-unit mortality dropped significantly, with no ongoing cluster of unexplained deaths during the remainder of that period.

The Thirlwall Inquiry shouldn't change anyone's mind about Letby's guilt or innocence as that was never its intention.

The outcome was always intended to understand why the staff acted as they did.

The main question is always why didn't anyone raise a safeguarding issue when it was clear there were a number of unexpected neonatal deaths?

Firefly1987

It's a bit concerning that this report was entirely about how Letby could've been stopped sooner

Why are you surprised when this was the basis for the entire enquiry?

and you've still got a majority of people claiming she's an innocent scapegoat.

Can you prove this, or are you just making the same assumptions as always?

You can really see how people get stuck in their views and are unwilling to look at things objectively.

Pot, Kettle.

Yet strangely it seems to praise a man that kept a drawer of evidence for a year and didn't say anything.

Oh yes of course and I'm not saying this was a brilliantly ran hospital. A lot of people seem to assume a subpar unit means she can't also be a serial killer though. When you look at each individual baby and the circumstances around their death or collapse, a failing hospital just doesn't explain it. The only thing that explains it is Letby being guilty.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that is the truth. I'm continuously amazed when other people can't see it. But then I don't think they followed the trial and her PR team have put out positive stories about her constantly for 2 years so I guess I can see how some of the public have been fooled.

Why are you surprised when this was the basis for the entire enquiry?

I'm talking about the reaction on here to the enquiry. I see a lot of people haven't learned from the mistakes the managers made-hopefully they don't work in safe guarding or if they do they would actually take concerns brought to them seriously.

Can you prove this, or are you just making the same assumptions as always?

It's right here on this thread from plenty of posters.

Pot, Kettle.

Yeah I should really change my mind and delude myself she's innocent. If there was the remotest chance of that I wouldn't be arguing so strongly for her guilt.

There’s definitely reasonable doubt in my opinion. No real solid evidence so not sure how anyone can be 100% convinced of guilt.

Still waiting for a plausible explanation of how the "liver injury" was accomplished.

And how air down an NG tube could be used as a murder method - oh wait, the expert who postulated that changed his mind, didn't he?

Or how insulin got put into feed bags that were tamper proof.

When you look at each individual case, there are still more questions than answers.

There is no material available to people who followed the trial at the time that isn't available still. There is no reason to dismiss the opinions of people who read or heard it later.

But a failing hospital can cause baby deaths.

Overworked/poorly performing nurses missing signs of deterioration.

Lack of doctors and infrequent medical reviews meaning babies not given correct treatment.

Poor clinical practice leading to unanticipated complications e.g. thrombosis from unmaintained umbilical lines.

Poor communication between staff meaning babies not receiving the care they needed.

Pressures from non clinical managers to take babies sicker than they were able to manage.

Inadequate conditions causing infection. Broken equipment causing measurement errors.

These were sick babies who were not expected to die if given all the care we expect from a level 2 neonatal unit. But these babies were in a unit that wasn't equipped to provide safe neonatal care, so their prognosis would actually have been very different.

There really isn't. It was agreed in court two of the babies were poisoned with insulin. The only people saying it wasn't a poisoning are on her new (expert shopped) defence panel. And the main ones just quit, unsure who the ones left are who supposedly have some natural explanation for it. But they just lost the main ones who were apparently going to make sure she was exonerated...

Even without that there's enough evidence against her-multiple experts all agreeing this was air embolism, overfeeding, impact type injuries. Why would they ALL lie?

They ignored post mortem findings and theorised based on the premise that the babies had been harmed by Lucy Letby who was "always there" (even when she wasn't - see the infamous x-ray volte face) . Whether that counts as lying I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure Ravi Jayaram committed perjury.

@MistressoftheDarkSideHow did they simultaneously cherry pick only Letby shifts yet one where she wasn't even on shift got through?