If you were previously on the fence about Lucy Letby’s guilt, have the Thirlwall findings swayed you either way?

Well, even if it does show insulin administration it's obvious that the only possible explanation isn't a nurse poisoning bags specifically.

So odd that we have two other results of the same type from that same lab, in a single year. One was just a trial, but still ... And why hasn't the other been prosecuted?

Whether that was Lucy Letby or not was questionable anyway, but I don't think we have any information about protocols for bringing cold cots into the room. It's hardly something you could hope to do unobserved, so I doubt whoever it was brought it in maliciously.

No, the results were unusual enough for the lab to phone the ward to discuss.
The ward didn’t follow up on that for whatever reason which is what I find shocking.
Thirlwall agrees that the results should have been investigated.

Yes, and it is the doctors on the ward who made the clinical decision. Absolutely, I agree it's a dreadful shame the proper tests weren't done.

Sure the parents knew to baby was dieing. these weren’t full term babies. I don’t really know what happened there neither do you, this is based on recollection of a mother quite traumatised by what was happening, I don’t want to go into arguments of what happens when babies die. But to say she should not be working in this environment, I have had parents lie about my interaction with them. We are not allowed to defend ourselves. This was done not out of spite but because parents can keep their babies with them for longer.

How many odd insulin results is that altogether?

I thought these results were not found until 6 months after the fact.

Found this

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/feb/07/strong-reasonable-doubt-over-lucy-letby-insulin-convictions-experts-say

It is a vile thing to do. No better than bringing in a coffin before somebody dies. Sometimes I despair.

I know that. But the baby was still alive. Those poor parents.

@Viviennemary yes and she actually said "you've said your goodbyes, want me to put him in this?" And the dad (I think) had to say "he's not dead yet" and she left sharpish. This was baby C and she wasn't designated nurse and shouldn't have been anywhere near him or his family anyway. But of course posters on here will cling to the idea this mystery nurse hasn't been identified as Letby (even though the dad described her and later recognised her seeing a photo even if he didn't know her name at the time-which makes sense as she wasn't supposed to be that baby's nurse) you can't justify it at all, but they'll try...

Four in nine months, that we know of.

The first thing I'd think would be that it was accidental but of course they weren't arsed checking.

Well Dr Evans actually does think there are another potential 2 insulin cases that the police should investigate. If she's connected to all four, which I expect she is, then even you might have to concede she's a poisoner (and the rest)

@kkloo there isn't an accidental explanation that's why. Insulin never goes into TPN bags.

The insulin being in the TPN bags was the prosecution theory, the lab didn't suggest that.

@kkloo ok so what are your theories on it being accidental?

There is no evidence whatsoever that there was any insulin in the PN bags.

The idea that the PN bags were used as a vehicle is solely a prosecution theory to get around the fact that LL was not on shift for the low BG readings and when the bloods were taken.

Nobody has adequately explained how the bags could have been spiked without detection or how much insulin would have been needed to overcome the adsorption onto the bag material. And LL would have surely known about the Stepping Hill cases from a few years prior where similar spiking had been detected and confirmed in a lab test - so it seems a very strange method to choose.

Accidental injection of insulin directly to the baby by someone who was present. Seems unlikely, but in a chaotic ward a case of mistaken identity isn’t impossible.

But I think this is a red herring. There are other explanations for apparently “impossible” insulin to c peptide ratios.

Which are?

Dr Evans already knew about the Panorama case. He wrote a report on it years ago. The police either never looked for charges or had them refused by the CPS. It's obviously not possible to link Lucy Letby to it. And that tells us something.

Insulin binding. https://www.thejusticegap.com/new-research-undermining-letbys-convictions-for-insulin-poisoning/

Insulin binding, test picking up antibodies, contamination of sample, lab error, any combination of these.

OK but to this day it's not been proven these were non-poisonings, the experts cant agree and deliberate harm certainly hasn't been ruled out. So regardless of Lucy Letby's guilt, surely you have to take action on future test results like these from a safeguarding perspective? Too much is at stake not to do anything.

Can you refresh my memory on the Panorama case because I don't think either documentary is available now. They found another case whilst recording Panorama? And it wasn't baby Y?

It's obviously not possible to link Lucy Letby to it. And that tells us something.

I don't think we can assume that at all. She was connected to baby Y and they didn't take that one to court. I've also seen something about another twin (non-indictment) with unexpected low sugars only on the night shift (LL was on) so if that was the case, she's definitely connected to that one. Assuming the info about non-indictment babies is correct.

Yes of course. The results should have been followed up at the time.

But the requirement is not to prove that there were no poisonings - it’s to prove that, beyond reasonable doubt, there were. There is plenty of doubt.