AIBU to oppose housing 1,000 undocumented young men near Piddington?

The 1960s Indian immigration wave were the skilled highly educated immigrants.

You say lots of things but just because emptied existed in the past (and were done by everyone) doesn't mean we need to accept mass immigration as a penance. Today's citizens did nothing at all to "deserve it".

You can basically see empire as a form of foreign direct investment.

An engineer is a professional so is a Michelin star chef. Location is also irrelevant to social class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_model#Working_class

@CatsAreBetterThanMen - you can't really accuse people of shutting down reasonable debate by using the racist card, only to the call me a racist in the next breath 😆

I am not a racist and well you know it. I suppose sometimes, for some people, projection may be a form of defence - however, it is not racist to state that the populations of British Indians, Pakistanis and Black Africans are very significant in the U.K. and have been for decades. This is a fact. It's hardly akin to recommending the annihilation of white British people! Come on. That will not be happening any time soon, don't worry.

I'm glad you consider the Indian people who fled Uganda in the 1960s as having made a positive contribution to the UK. My husband's mother was part of that wave of immigration. Both of her sons have created thousands of jobs between them in the UK and contributed millions in tax. Their father fled political / religious persecution in Iran. Do you blame him? What would you have done at the start of the Iranian revolution if you could have escaped?

The U.K. forged an Empire, exploiting many countries - far too much to get into here. They partitioned India and obviously the impact of British colonisation is still evident in many counties today. So it can hardly be surprising that if you go out and try to colonise the world, at some point some of that world will end up back on your shores.

Part of my own family is from Spain and look at the impact of the British tourist industry up and down the Spanish coast. Look at all the British people who have moved to Spain - and then voted Brexit. You couldn't make it up.

Anyway, as I said populations change. The British, of all people, given their part in the colonisation of indigenous people's in America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and our impact on the histories of so many other nations should understand this above all.

I agree with you that the debate about immigration has become so polarised as to be rendered largely ridiculous. I suppose I just don't fear demographic change in the way you do. That is the difference.

I don't agree that immigration has fuelled the relatively low academic achievement of white working class British. I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. If you are born into a country with free schools and literacy standards that are supposedly the envy of the world, you only have yourself to blame for not taking advantage of that. If people can flee poverty and war and still manage to value education above all else and make the absolute most of it, then that is something to be celebrated.

Thanks for the clarification.

By that reckoning a senior aerospace engineer and a sous chef at a 4 Michelin star restaurant, living Camden are on a social par with a Morrisons checkout girl and a road sweeper living in Grimsby.

Shecanbe post! Sorry, there's a glitch on mn today, can't seem to tag posters.

And yet they love to strike and not go to work

Sorry, CatLifer, just wanted to clarify what post you found uncomfortable?

Social class isn’t determined by salary. It’s a skilled manual job which is working class.

I must admit, I found that post to be uncomfortable too. Any sort of talk of eradicating people and their culture from their homeland is offensive, regardless of which culture or ethnicity is being referred to. I'm not sure the poster actually intended it to be so, but a timely reminder to think before committing words to type.

Train drivers are on £70k per year so no they are not working class regardless of their skin coulor

That would be because of numerous slum clearance and London overspill initiatives in the 60s. Take all the people out of the East End and disperse them around new towns and the culture disappears with them.

I mean Cockney culture has gone now, for one. Complete displacement.

"We are a diverse multicultural society and there is no rolling back on that, I'm afraid. I believe that the British Indian population (1st, 2nd or 3rd gens) now outnumber the entire population of Scotland. Same for the British Pakistani population and same for the black African population. You might not like it, but it's not going to change so to a large extent yes, embrace who we are now or left behind."

My goodness shecanbe, do you have any idea how racist that actually sounds?

Replace white British with Maori, Native American, Aborigine, Indian, Pakistani, South African, Ghanan...

Lets be honest, we're not just talking about people being left behind - which is fine with you anyway, we're talking about a whole people and culture being potentially wiped out from their homeland by the turn of the century. I'm just astonished by your attitude.

I'm sorry but you are misunderstanding, I should have specified white ethnically British but as I was refuting the argument that the demographic of Britain and significant population changes due to immigration was normal, I thought it would be taken as read that I meant white British. When I specified working class British I did so deliberately to separate the white working classes from the white middle and upper classes, who largely remained in London whislt the lower classes were cleansed.

I absolutely agree that a good proportion of migrants to this country have assimilated, worked hard and have made and continue to make valuable contributions to this country. Two excellent examples are the Windrush generation and the 30,000 Ugandan Asians expelled by Idi Amin in the 1970's.

However, to try to conflate my objection to the obliteration of the community of the then indigenous inhabitants of London as racist is, I believe a form of inverted racism.

I can be against mass immigration into Britain and the demographic obliteration of the indigenous people of Britain whilst still respecting the contribution of some migrants. It is not racist to only want migrants that will be a net benefit to your country. That is just basic common sense. It is not racist to want to safeguard the population and culture of the indigenous people of a country. That is just basic common sense. If people, in responsible numbers want to come to this country, adopt British culture as their own, pay taxes, work and integrate I have absolutely no problem with that.

I am under no goose-stepping illusion that the whites are some kind of master race. I only need to ride a bus to my town centre to see countless examples of why the middle classes are so repelled by the white working classes. My issue is with a ruling elite that is so rooted in the class system that they will destroy and replace with glee the white working classes rather than address the root causes of the inequalities they face.

But in all seriousness, is it racist not to want the white British people to not disappear totally from their own country over the next century? Please, consider for a moment if we were talking about an Asian or African county and the demographic was reversed, ask yourself honestly, would you feel the same way?

Do you realise what you do by calling everyone that brings up issues like this in a reasonable manner racists and nazis? You strip the words of all meaning and impact. You create an environment for racism to flourish. You can look around and see it happening now, the impact of being called racist has lessened to the point that people like Steve Laws are openly espousing actual nazism and eugenics and gathering a significant following doing so. Trying to shut down reasonable debate only leads to extremism, it doesn't eradicate it.

Well, I'm glad we agree about Reform at least @CatsAreBetterThanMen . Also I wholeheartedly agree about cats!

I don't agree that immigration has been damaging to the U'K overall since the 1960s. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Anyway, to deal with things as they stand, as you say, the U.K. is not stuck in the 1950s (thank god). We are a diverse multicultural society and there is no rolling back on that, I'm afraid. I believe that the British Indian population (1st, 2nd or 3rd gens) now outnumber the entire population of Scotland. Same for the British Pakistani population and same for the black African population. You might not like it, but it's not going to change so to a large extent yes, embrace who we are now or left behind.

Climate change will absolutely cause unprecedented waves of migration. As will AI as the jobs most of us take for granted disappear. I expect that by the time my children are my age, life in the UK will be barely recognisable. People will always move to where they perceive opportunities to be. It's the history of humanity and it always will be. Those who adapt survive. Those who bury their heads in the sand and cry for a rose-tinted memory of the days if yore will get left behind.

There’s a few things in your post that I agree with, but then you say things like this and I see what your real issue is:

Well, that's possibly because London has already been ethnically cleansed of working class Londoners. In 1961 the demographic of London was 97.7% white British, in 2021 it was 36.8% and continues to fall. If that were a statistic of another country and the demographics of ethnicities were reversed, there would be no debate about it being utterly scandalous.

The black and brown people working on the underground, the buses, cleaning offices and hospitals, caring for children, the elderly and anyone in between, the black and brown people who are housing officers, grounds people, cooks, supermarket workers, electricians, plumbers etc etc etc None of them are working class Londoners in your view because they’re the wrong colour.

But go on, tell us that it’s not about race.

I said this thread attracts racists, not that everyone who posts is a racist. The dogwhistle posts are pretty obvious.

Good afternoon shecanbe. Let me address your response to my post point by point.

"I can't speak for people in white middle class villages like Piddington. I live in London - our family is a mix of Indian, Spanish , Iranian, British. Not voting Reform does not make you 'ultra liberal elite.'"

Nowhere in my post (including the quote you used in your response) did I say not voting for reform equated to the "ultra liberal elite".

"Nobody voted for unchecked mass immigration, did they? Who voted for that?"

Well, for one, the people of Piddington and plenty of our self proclaimed betters that exploited the decency and stupidity of the majority of the population and then resorted to egregious bullying and intimidation when the usual tropes about the huge benefits of mass immigration lost their veneer.

I agree that voters (espicially working class voters) were utterly betrayed by all parties as exemplified by the huge mandate given to the conservatives after brexit that resulted in the infamous "Boris wave".

"What do you actually expect voters to do when there are only a handful of parties to choose from and realistically, none of them are going to be able to 'stop the boats' are they? Because it's virtually impossible. Even Reform can't stop the boats, despite what they may claim."

I do not accept that it's impossible to stop the boats. If we ceased to incentivise people coming here, then that would be an excellent start. Stop ALL benefits to anyone that is not a British citizen, that includes access to our health services. If pulling your own teeth out is fine and dandy for our pensioners that have paid their taxes all their lives, then I don't see the human rights argument for giving dental care to young illegal migrants, or in fact any migrants at all.

To be honest the boats are not the biggest immigration problem this country faces, in reality it is only a tiny percentage but it's the most visible so it's the one people latch on to. We need a total overhaul of our immigration and asylum policy. It would mean radical change but I believe we need radical change. All that is needed is the will to enact that change.

"People in London are not going to be particularly shocked about immigration in the way people in other areas may be because obviously, there are people from all around the world here for all manner of reasons every second of every day."

Well, that's possibly because London has already been ethnically cleansed of working class Londoners. In 1961 the demographic of London was 97.7% white British, in 2021 it was 36.8% and continues to fall. If that were a statistic of another country and the demographics of ethnicities were reversed, there would be no debate about it being utterly scandalous.

"Do you think it's easy to get GP appts and school places in London? Of course it's not, but it's way too easy to blame immigration for everything."

I don't believe I blamed immigration for everything, but if I can use an analogy of an alcoholic woman. This woman has a history of childhood abuse, is married to a man that beats her, is in a low paid job with failing physical and mental health. Now the alcoholism isn't her only problem, indeed it's not even the root of all her problems, but it is certainly making her problems much, much worse and preventing her from ever bettering her situation. To state the obvious, in this analogy immigration is alcohol.

"Populations change - always have and always will do. Ti some extent, communities have to embrace change or get left behind."

Now this is something that's thrown out there a lot that really gets my goat. The demographic of Britain was largely static until the latter half of the last century (see the statistic about London). Britain has never been a nation of immigrants, unlike America. Again, taking the 1961 census, which didn't record ethnicity, only around 4.4% of the population had been born outside of Britain and the BAME population was estimated to be under 1%. Current estimates project the indigenous population of Britain will have fallen to under 50% by 2050.

This radical demographic change is not happening in Africa, Asia, or pretty much anywhere outside of Europe. Pretending this level of demographic change, immigration and the problems that have arisen from it, are normal and expected would be risible if it wasn't so offensive.

And just out of curiosity, I wonder how many of the people that use this callously pragmatic argument of move with it or get left behind (aka get f**ked) would apply the same logic to say, the Palestinian people?

"Immigration patterns will change again as climate change takes hold - it may well be English flooding into Scotland or Scandinavia, while there is mass migration from parts of the world where life will become unsustainable due to drought or floods."

Well, Ectonubians from the planet R33471 could invade as their own planet is dying and use the population of earth as food but that's not really here nor there, can we stick to the current problem please?

"Never mind, 1000 men in a hotel in Piddington ffs."

Hmm, I think we all know this is not about "1000 men in a hotel in Piddington" FFS.

"The real problem in the UK is that people with the lowest educational attainment are frequently white, 'working class' boys - particularly in seaside towns (where there are virtually no immigrants). Are the low expectations and educational attainment of these U.K. citizens the fault of immigrants too? What is actually going on? Why are white working class children falling behind, while the top schools are full of the children of immigrant families? Whose 'fault' is it?"

This again is deflecting from the issue, but I can state with certainty that the unprecedented levels of immigration Britain has experienced since 1997 has not helped the problem and has, in fact, created and contributed to a myriad of other problems around economic and social inequality and cohesion that have radically eroded the educational standards, social mobility and quality of life of the poorest communities in Britain.

"And yes, there most certainly are racists in society - of course there are. You see it in these threads - people can't hide their true colours despite what they may believe. Trying to pretend otherwise is an utter farce."

Without a doubt, the current levels of immigration and the attitudes of the political classes (and their cheerleaders) is adding to this problem.

"Not voting Reform does not make me 'the Left' ffs."

Again, respectfully, I never stated that it did. I am not a reform voter and I am most certainly not on what's currently considered the left of politics.

"Reform will do nothing for the poorest in society. They are literally the last people who care. I will never vote Reform because they are rotten to the core, the lot of them."

I agree, reform will not do anything to help the poorest in society and they are rotten to the core, exactly like labour, the lib dems, the conservatives (although I'm starting to like Kemi) and the utterly repugnant greens.

Ooh that's some conclusive evidence right there 😆 🤣

😂

Yes. Look back at your comments.

Are they now?

Good to see their comments are getting deleted.

The only fascist parties to find success have done so by convincing the middle classes, who actually vote.