AIBU to think not every school issue should be labelled SEN?

There doesn’t need to be anything formalised for a child to have SEN.

You've already shared a lot, I'm not sure what else you could add. You don't think someone is SEN unless they have a diagnosed health condition or disability, even if they have mild dyscalculia.
I do hope this is just rage bait. It's quite worrying if you really work in education when you're so ill informed.

So he had no diagnosed disability or health condition. That doesn't mean no special educational needs. Are you really a teacher? I find it surprising that a teacher doesn't understand the SEN isn't a health condition that's diagnosed by the NHS. It's simply a term for children who have special educational needs, it doesn't require a health professional to assess or diagnose.

@PensionPTakeI think many young offenders are definitely Sen and their needs have been recognised. However they have learning difficulties as well as behaviour difficulties. Schools definitely know who these dc are and have probably excluded them. Some should have had significantly more intervention much earlier but some parents are chaotic themselves and don’t do what’s required for dc. Many dc are failed by everyone but they are a tiny minority. Many parents just want dc to get extra time in exams and a laptop.

A pupil can have SEN and not have a diagnosis, though. So just because there was nothing diagnosed doesn’t mean they don’t have SEN as per the definition set out in the legislation.

It's most often seen in emotional neglect (IME).

The problem is (and this is what I was alluding to in my post yesterday (?) Some of this will be intentional by cruel parents.

But the majority of 'emotional neglect' will happen because both parents are out at work and are exhausted when they get in; or are pre-occupied with family worries due to lack of support, poor health or other issues; or serious financial concerns due to a difficult job market, debt and the cost of living; financial insecurity due to benefit sanctions, low paid work and zero hours contracts; their own unmet emotional needs through lack of family and wider support and relationship breakdowns; MH needs that aren't appropriately met because services have been cut; the loss of 'community' because everyone is in a similar boat and doesn't have time anymore etc

Schools can't do anything about any of this but children bring it all into school where there are limited resources for supporting children and families no one really knows what to do. So schools treat it as possible SEN because they haven't got anything else.

And, those children's life experiences have caused a special educational need even where it isn't linked to a diagnosable condition.

And this takes nothing away from the reality children and families who are running the gauntlet of assessments, diagnoses, and securing support for their children in schools (EHCPs, funding etc). But takes a lot away from them in the day to day experience of being in school.

And I'm not dismissive of anyone with genuine concerns or diagnoses. The majority of my family (immediate and wider) has a diagnosis of one form or another - ND, SpLD, sensory impairment, complex needs... I've had my own personal frustrations with the system too.

OK, so from your original post, OP

The children who don’t have SEN lose learning time.
Children who genuinely do have SEN can struggle to get the specialist support they need because resources are stretched.
Teachers are expected to somehow manage increasingly complex needs in mainstream classrooms.
And children who are struggling can end up stuck without appropriate support because nobody seems willing to make a decision until there’s a diagnosis.

I agree with a lot of this, and it's particularly the last part that stands out due to a situation with my DC.
Between birth and 4 years old, DC had a hearing deficit in 1 ear (deteriorating over that time) and had to have 2 operations before the school years. The operations stopped the deterioration but 1 ear remained with more losses than the other, which also can/could affect balance, swimming, posture sometimes, and so on.

Through primary, there were no serious issues related to this. A few ear infections treated with antibiotics. I would flag up the extra swimming precautions at school and at holiday clubs, brownies, etc - no problems and this was all ok.

Get to age 14 and the first serious ear infection comes back. Antibiotics treated it, but it caused vertigo and temporary but much worse hearing loss on one side for about 2 weeks, as well as random points of the heart racing which we had not seen before. DC felt very much affected in that time and struggled, performance in all sorts dropped very noticeably. I had meetings with the school regarding absence and adjustments. They should not be difficult adjustments. I took copies of letters on the audiology period and operations, and backup from the GP who verified the ear and heart experience.

But without going through SEN and the SEN coordinator - no adjustments could be recognised. Even temporary ones. Not enough basis to set up a health care plan without a renewed approach to Audiology, which would also, to me, be a really reasonable request. I don't really see the need for exam adjustments - but the feeling of being batted back because of 'not having things that fit into the SEN boxes' (and also being non disruptive but yes, actual learning taking a dive) - changed my mind about any future absences and the absence policy. If DC is not fit to be in school even for a temporary but real impediment, then DC will stay off until they are genuinely ok to be there and able to hear properly. So no, not everything is SEN but the only way that anything can change seems to be with the involvement of a SEN coordinator.

Absolutely. Children want to be liked, and loved, and fit in with their peers, and have friends, and they have a natural thirst to learn. They'll do that in whatever way they think works because they're children and can't think critically like adults.

The NSPCC estimate around 7 children in each class has been abused or neglected.

Gov stats estimate around half of the prison population is autistic/adhd/has LD/brain acquired injuries/dyslexia. Most of whom have not been recognised as having these until they enter the prison population so haven't received the support they needed. Probably due to people deciding they're just naughty little shits when they were kids.

Assessed by the nhs is very vague. Half my child's Sen difficulties aren't even covered by the nhs.

yes seeing a child for 10 mins a day definitely means you know them better than their parents. Honestly. If I had a quid for every time someone said stuff like that about my kids I'd be rich.

Yes, we had a senco (and a GP) who had the same attitude as you when dd was around the same age. Five years later, and after multiple battles, dd was assessed and diagnosed by a multidisciplinary NHS team with autism and associated anxiety. But only after the wheels had completely fallen off and she was no longer leaving the house, let alone going to school.

My response to the other mother would probably be "I don't think any of those things in and of themselves suggest neurodivergence at this age, but if you, as a parent, are noticing a pattern, then note those things down and keep an eye on things as she develops a little more". It wouldn't be to automatically disregard her observations or experience - because that's why so many girls in particular fly under the radar. She knows her child much better than you, after all. And it's often hard to convey all the little 'differences' you notice with other parents in the playground, precisely because you just know you're causing eye rolls.

THIS 💯

Yep I agree with OP too!

i was talking to a fellow mum at a preschool party the other week and I know her child fairly well from pick ups and drop off times, she’s always playing with my dd, shouts to dd to say ‘your mummy is here’ and is very chatty and interested in my work attire (I’m a nurse). So I was flabbergasted when her mum told me she’d had a battle with preschool staff trying to get her dd assessed for autism/adhd…….. her reasons were….
Her behaviour is terrible at home after preschool but she masks all day and is good at preschool
Shes funny with her food, a picky eater, says she likes things one day and doesn’t the next
She was very introverted and would only talk to her key worker when she first started preschool
She gets her days of the week mixed up and doesnt have a proper concept of time
She doesn’t sit and eat very well at parties because all the attention is not on her
I mean……. I could have said most of this bout my dd! But they are only 4!
To me this is not SEN, it is normal growing up behaviour…..
I interpret all this as she’s tired after preschool after being there all day til nearly 6pm, she has potential to be a bit shy, she’s plays up more in her ‘safe place’ with you her mum, she’s changes her mind what food she likes and goes through phases (so do I age 40!) She gets confused with days - don’t we all with busy lives 🤣

Fully agree OP!

This is so sad. I do think that many on mn seem to exist is a world where they believe that this couldn't possibly be the case - that their lives are somehow sheltered from this unpalatable truth.

The fact is that a child who has extreme behaviour is still vulnerable, however bad the behaviour is, and whatever the cause (SEN, trauma of some kind, neglect in the home etc). I wonder how many of the poor little souls in the news who have had serious case reviews after their deaths would have fallen into the "naughty for the sheer fun of it" category. Yet when the worst happens, people wring their hands and wail about how appalling it all is, and why didn't others just do more? The same people who are probably the most vociferous about children's behaviour and don't agree that it's a way of communicating some kind of vital information about how a child experiences life, and people.

If parents are not parenting (and I agree that many are not), then I'd like to think we're still a society that should support and protect those children, precisely because they have nobody else to turn to and limited ability to communicate their thoughts and feelings.

Do I think they should be allowed to continue to disrupt classrooms? Of course not. But as a society, we have to do better than simply writing them off entirely, or we've learned nothing since the Victorian age.

The fact is that many children in UK classrooms are enduring neglect, or sexual, physical and emotional abuse, on a regular basis in the home environment. Think about the impact that's having on their developing brains. Just because you live in a nice area, and most of your friends are good parents, it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The kids i grew up with who were like this either became drop-outs from employment, addicted to drugs or alcohol, in prison, or dead from suicide or disease. But before any of that, they were children. People can say "it wasn't like this in my day/ when I was at school" but memories are selective. They've always been there, but the chances are you've forgotten, because you surrounded yourselves with 'the good kids, from nice homes'. It only becomes apparent again when your own child is impacted by another's behaviour.

This is very insightful. To me it highlights that kids bring their own lives into the class and it isn’t always about send or needing a diagnosis. I think that’s what we are losing in the rush to diagnose. Teachers like the op know this. Some parents feel they are doing a good job if they explore these avenues and some of us lacked this when we weee at school so we are trying to do better for our kids. But the send label isn’t really what’s needed for many.

@Emily3325 And yet that’s what the 1981 Education act based on the Warnock report envisaged. That SEN was temporary for some dc. We certainly had dc moving out of units in schools and back into mainstream and many were ok with the move. We had nurture groups and all sorts of advice for teachers to enable dc to be included as far as possible. It’s obviously not possible for all dc but there was a clear intention that labels could be temporary for many of the dc who had needs during their school career. There was no intention to label dc for 14 years.

Sometimes it's because they have a family background of abuse in which they haven't developed a sense of self; or have low self esteem; or feel unseen, unnoticed and don't have a sense of their own worth or value. Sometimes, they are told by their parents that they are stupid and worthless and nobody would ever love them. Setimes they are just ignored and irrelevant.

Sometimes they don't have a sense of even being visible to others.

If they get into trouble, it means they are seen, it means they can have an impact on the world around them. It means that they are actually there.

If others laugh, it communicates to them that they they can affect someone's emotional state, that they must have value to be able to do this. Every person who tells them off, every person who laughs has seen them so they must be visible.

And laughter is associated with happiness. They read making other chlden laugh as making them happy. And it might be a really novel experience for them to make someone happy.

Extra money but without the stigma.

Or perhaps they want the extra money that means their children can access the curriculum that is largely unavailable in specialist schools versus the full mainstream curriculum? No parent wants their child written off academically until every other option has at the very least been explored.

So another (genuine) question then sorry...

But if this training has afforded you an enhanced understanding and knowledge of SEN, why are you so against those who need support from receiving it?

You have alluded to varying needs & academic profiles, behavioural challenges, classroom distractions etc.... for specified support and funding, these things need a "label" of some sort.

What do you suggest instead please?

But even if it's not Sen there must be a reason why they're doing it. Why are they so desperate to make the class laugh they get themselves into trouble for it. Who assessed them?