AIBU to think of course all the anti-trans posts on this website and others are leading to real life harm?

Your logic is ridiculous. I don't want ANY man in women's spaces. That doesn't mean I want men to be beaten up or harassed when they are minding their own business. The exact same goes for transwomen (who are also men). Lots of ordinary men are perverts, and the same goes for transwomen (being men). Which is why we don't want them in our spaces when we're having a wee or getting changed. That is just a fact, and the statistics bear it out. Transwomen are no less likely to be perverts than other men.

Anything else that you read into the statement above is purely of your own imagining. Aka a strawman. So why don't you stop imagining made-up arguments and admit we've got a good point?

If a man if unsafe because of something another man has done, take it up with men.

If trans identified men are not safe in men's spaces, take it up with men.

I feel like I am a broken record with this but actually, take it up with Stonewall and Mermaids and all the other agencies who lied to trans people about what rights they have, what the future would look like and how women were all fine to share spaces and would happily budge up and also be human sheilds. GC women haven't mislead anyone. No one has made their life more difficult by coming out as trans because of anything a GC woman said.

Remind me - who is it gets kettled by mobs in masks banging drums, and shouting obscenities amd waving placards about decapitating terfs when they meet to talk? Can't even watch a documentary without it being cancelled while they are shouted at and spat on?

Correct me if my assumption is wrong but this post seems to suggest that you don’t see those who believe they can actually change sex as having a mental illness ? Sex is immutable. To believe otherwise and to try to bully everyone else into engaging in the fantasy is an indication that all is not well mental health wise.

Even though some have publicly said that they are ?

Hayley from Corrie was a woman.

Totally agree everyone is very polite just absolutely adamant you cannot change sex. That's it.

The violence and hate is all aimed at women! I'd be interested to see the abuse someone like Kellie Jay Keen would receive if she was sat alone and identified by trans and their allies.

Are you seriously saying no cross dresser is motivated by fetish?

Transwomen have often been the target of male abuse

blame the women for men abusing other men ? Ah yes - that’s a text book process

have you any evidence that violence against transgender people is rising at a faster rate than other types of male violence ? Becuase you have to do that to even make a correlation with women sticking up for their rights

why should women shut up and not assert their delights because men are violent ?

98% of sexual crimes are committed by men and slightly less for violent crimes. Those figures do not reduce when a man puts on a dress, paints his nails and changes his pronouns. Women have been the victims of men for millennia- their victim status trumps trans victim status a million percent.
people should be able to wear what they want and call themselves what they want but they cannot change sex and should not expect others to indulge in their fantasies. As the Proclaimers stated recently - the trans community are ‘truthphobic’.

Then they should understand that women have the same fear of being attacked by men and that allowing men into women’s safe spaces exacerbates that.

Women on MN: We accept you however you dress but it doesn't make you a woman. Please respect us and stop using use to validate yourself as a woman. You are not. It violates our privacy and dignity and leads to women self excluding. Third Party facilities are available so please use those rather than women's.
Trans Activists: Bigots. Die in a grease fire.

Women on MN: We have legal human rights as well as transwomen. We are not trying to harm anyone. We would just like legal protections which prevent men from abusing the law to be observed and enforced and we would like to be able to complain when this is not respected without fear that we will be doxed, reported to HR, suspended or otherwise unfairly treated at work.
Trans Activists: Bigots. Terfs are the worse kind of human they should be made to suffer.

Women on MN: There are lots of issues with this in schools and there's a lots of problems with how medicalising is being pushed without proper research and without ethical considerations. We need follow up on the existing people who transitioned as children before transitioning more. We need to stop and allow children to wait because all the evidence suggests that affirmation only approaches make it harder to desist. If just left to wait it out most kids will desist. The stats about suicide are misleading and this doesn't address mental health issues that persist after transition. There are concerns here and the evidence is beginning to build up to show significant malpractice in several countries.
Trans Activists: This is literal genocide.

Tommy Robinson: String of abuse.

If you are thinking posters on MN are like TR you are either illiterate or too lazy to bother to listen to what is being said and why.

The failure to address legitimate concerns only feeds dickheads like Robinson. It is the failure of allies and trans activists to have an adult conversation and instead scream transphobia like Muppets that is the problem. That's not the fault of women on MN who have just said this is about existing legal, ethical and workable considerations over safeguarding everyone - including those who identify as trans.

Engage. Listen. Get with the program.

It's not about being nice. It can't be. The law isn't ever written to be nice to people. It's about being fair to everyone and protecting everyone. It has to be workable. It has to not crash with other laws. This is ALL women are asking for. Fair considerations, recognition of their existing rights and protections and understanding that laws around voyeurism are absolutely still existent and remain relevant. The law isn't about fuzzy feelings. Fuzzy indefinable feelings are nonsense in legal terms.

Many here have trans identifying relations are concerned that failures in understanding the law will harm their relatives - far from hating trans people, some of the posters on MN are the most concerned people about the welfare of trans identifying people.

Trans people acknowledge their sex when identifying as trans. It also provides protections in law. Otherwise they cease to have them at all. gays and lesbians also need biological sex acknowledged as they otherwise lose protections. As do women. There are three groups here. Also we need to protect disabled individuals and since there is above the expect rate of neurodiverse people who are transitioning we need to be careful about that too. And we need to concern concerns about children - there are multiple groups within the trans identifying community we are talking about - it is not a single cohort. The interests of all these groups should be considered.

There are a significant number of interest groups here. Recognise them.

Understand this a deeply complex subject. Not a simple transpeople=good MN=bad, brain dead level of thinking.

I wouldn’t stare because I’d be worried about their motivations. I’d hope they meant no harm but you can’t tell whether a trans woman is genuine or dressed in that way to try to get into women’s spaces.

Am I wrong to think their chickens are coming home to roost and certain posters will want to claim they never had a hand in it all?

I would say the chickens coming home to roost are due to the trans activists who have pushed and pushed and pushed, and threatened, and had tantrums, and generally been vile to anyone who doesn’t agree with them. People are sick of the manipulation and guilt tripping, and sick of being told they are nazis and bigots because they want single sex spaces. And sick of being told what are acceptable opinions and what ones warrant death threats or cancellation. And I’m personally sick of seeing men dressed like little girls or porn stars wandering around the area I live. They creep everyone out and no one, absolutely no one, really sees them as women.

So I’m sorry that trans people are being hurt as I would not wish that on anyone, but if you want to look at who to blame then I would firmly direct my gaze in the direction of the men who perpetrate this violence, and the TRAs who have overstepped the mark for years which has contributed to the backlash TIMs are now facing.

And you @Shelaydownunderthetable You seem to think mumsnet is a hotbed of hate. All we’re asking is for biological men to stay out of women’s spaces. Is this hateful? Is that what you think?

If I was sat next to man dressed as woman in a waiting area I would not stare, I wouldnt act in any way shape or form like he bothered me because I would not be bothered. Live and let live.
Unless he wanted to use women's toilets obviously

I’ve never seen violent rhetoric against this type of man on Mumsnet. On the contrary, the violent rhetoric has come from the pro trans lobby. Whole screeds about beating, killing and raping ‘TERFS’. They stoked up the flames, and now they’re being burned by them now the winds have changed. Women didn’t set the violent tone, the trans lobby did. Loudly and proudly. Guess it ain’t no fun when the rabbit got the gun. Not that it was even a woman that attacked this man, other men did.

Women have reacted to encroachment on our spaces. Legitimately. Don’t start a fight and start whining because you’re not winning like you thought you would. People aren’t obliged to just give you what you want because you’ve demanded it.

This is such nonsense. The man who was filmed and harassed was not injured. And if the nasty man doing the bullying had physically assaulted the man in a dress, that would still not be the fault of people like me saying male PE teachers should not be in girls changing rooms here on MN.
The whole reason we are in this mess is because we have never had a public discussion about these matters. Women were just told they needed to pretend males were really female and should accept them into their female only spaces. Remember very few men have their penis and testicles surgically removed, so these are fully intact fully physically developed men we are talking about. Larger and stronger and exhibiting the exact same male behaviours all men do.

Agreed.

You have to be either gullible as fuck or a really bad person to think women are to blame for men's misdeeds and the solution to some men's vulnerability is to give them free access to us.

That’s a very weak argument. You quoted ‘pages and pages of vilifying innocent trans people’. MN is predominantly women.

You're coming across as being overly dramatic .

Why is it wrong for women to want and need single sex spaces, @helpfulucy? Don’t they deserve privacy and dignity in their changing rooms, loos, prison cells, sports?

What is your response to the trans rights activists who say that gender critical women should be gang raped, assaulted with barbed wire wrapped bats, killed in grease fires?

My son has been bullied verbally and physically in the gents. Hes also kind, lovely, gentle and all the other words often used ny TRAs to describe their TW friends.
Should he be allowed in the ladies too? And if not then why not?

FWIW, my TW friend is also kind, gentle etc. I don't think they should be in the ladies any more than I think my son should.

Agree.

This! Keep up op.