AIBU to think of course all the anti-trans posts on this website and others are leading to real life harm?

Link re transgender people and homicide, 2000- 2025.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6182901

I assume Emergency Department?

When the consultant said 'ED' what did they mean? If it was eating disorders the death rates are less surprising.

They always pleased men and anyone who hates women, or the west, or freedoms.

Can I ask, why do you want men to be in women’s spaces? Do you REALLY not see the issue women have with this?

TRAs think that we’re frightened of being called far right but they don’t realise that we are not obsessed by labels and we are not the ones who define ourselves with labels

So you’re ok with male TRA posting but men who say they are men who defend women are a problem? Ok then.

It's amazing isn't it?

This is why there are people actively campaigning to prevent data being collected using sex not gender.

This data doesn't make for great reading. All it says is women need safeguarding and the SC decision and subsequent EHRC guidance needs to be taken seriously but making everything mixed sex isn't an acceptable solution to the problem.

It is increasing discrimination against women.

If it is ‘far right’ to want to protect women’s legal, sex based rights then all I can say is WTF happened to the left? 😵‍💫

Yes I'm sure you really do see it that way..

The 'far right' label is about on a par with your two year old calling you 'poo poo head'. Words actually have meaning. Not just vibes.

Isn't it just?

Did anyone else pick up on the use of the word demented here by the way?

It's either a Harry Potter reference, in which case it's showing up a lot.

Or it's a massively ageist post.

Either way, I think the poo poo head comparison is spot on.

I know I'm not far right. If people read what I say and still think I'm far right, there's really not a lot I can do or say about that. It wouldn't hold up in court. But usually it just says they are too lazy to actually read what's said and instead they are just part of some community which trots out JKR is the devil memes because they haven't progressed past transpeople=good everyone else=bad, black and white thinking which ten year olds could challenge.

It's a level of immaturity that stands out a mile (regardless of actual age).

Failure to grasp the implications comes from not understanding the concepts we are talking about.

When it’s a rights issue, then no we shouldn’t tar whole groups of people based on some people’s behaviour. But this is not a rights issue, regardless of the language TRAs use. There is no human right for people to access spaces that belong to the opposite sex.

What we are actually talking about here is a safeguarding issue. And safeguarding is about understanding the relative risk of various groups and acting accordingly.

We keep men out of women’s spaces because men are overwhelmingly much more of a risk to women than other women are. There is zero evidence that men who identify as women are any less of a risk to women who men that don’t. There is zero justification for giving them access to women’s spaces.

Any time an Isla Bryson or Katie Dolatowski pops up, it highlights how women are being let down as basic safeguarding norms are being overruled.

It is not acceptable for women to be dismissed as collateral damage in a rush to establish so called progressive credentials.

@RedToothBrush the fact so many crimes such as perverts filming and assaults have been recorded in unisex spaces would support that. Like in unisex changing areas. Opportunity would seem to go a long way to facilitation.

In the UK, a paper examined homicide numbers involving trans identifying people and found more trans people were perpetrators than victims. I'll find the link.

Actually the sign on the door seems to prove at least some protection in leisure centres with single sex provision compared to those with changing villages...

Also, there's a reason why single sex provision is promoted in third world countries.

That sign on the door is amazing at stopping a sizeable number of opportunists and there's data to back this up.

How inconvenient is this truth?

Please tell me Bandy, how do I know which ones are which?

This is very basic safeguarding. Most people are not criminals, but we still need police checks to work certain jobs so we can at least try to protect the vulnerable.

There are GRCs, which might help us differentiate, but no one is allowed to ask a trans person if they have one or not or to see it. What's the solution, other than just erring on the side of caution and keeping biological men out of women's spaces?

I would like clarification on how the lives were lost. Are you saying they took their own lives?
You say being trans is "a real thing", presumably you mean rather than a mental health issue. But then you allude to trans people taking their own lives. Which suggests there are mental health factors at play.

I also want to know what you consider "bullying" because we have a ridiculous backdrop in the UK of men being told "no you can't change sex" and "no you can't join that women's rape support group" being recorded as hate crimes, so the accusations of bulling and hate have lost all meaning and need some context.

If that is true then it’s worth noting that in Ireland, self ID is in full swing and any man he likes can swan into a woman’s space without women being able to do anything about that.

Trans identified men have everything they demanded.

'I understand non medical staff aren't educated that being trans is a real thing but the ignorance is horrifying'

Also, I know many hcps who are educated and still know men can identify as trans but should not use women's areas. It's you who doesn't seem educated in this area.

It's awful isn't it. You'd hope the days of alleged doctors blaming others for suicide was long gone. It's always the mental illness to blame.

Despite the superior attitude, I'm not convinced you are a consultant. If you were, surely you would realise it was a bit more complicated than that.

Lost how?
Do you mean strokes, heart attacks, pulmonary embolism, all caused by cross sex hormones use.
Do you mean by murder? If so thats huge news as only 9 have been murdered in the uk since records began and non of those were in Scotland so 6 in one area in a couple of months would be a major event that there would be wall to wall press coverage.
Do you means suicide?

If you are claiming 6 suicides in a couple of months then maybe you should look at the lies and suicidal narrative that TRAs have been promoting for the last couple of decades including the false 41% narrative that comes from a survey that was self selective and was asked of all lgbt people which had dubious wording ie "have you ever thought about suicide" and was only answered by 29 people and only 13 said yes (too small a sample and to ambiguous a question to even be indicative). Whereas the Appleby review of all UK suicides say the opposite ie no increase or decrease in suicide amongst trans identifying people or the admissions in crt of suzie carmicheal then head of the Tavistock that trans identifying kids are at no greater risk of suicide than any other CAMHS patients or every single study that shows trans identifying people are most likely to commit suicide after full medical and surgical transition due to their underlying mental health issues not having been treated before or during transition nor cured by transition combined with the lifelong harms done to their bodies by medical and surgical transition.

Just to be clear trans identifying people have had zero rights removed from them with the supreme court rulling last year as they never had the LEGAL right to use the opposite sex facilities, services or anything for the opposite sex nor have we ever had self-id in the UK. What we had was stonewall and other trans activist groups lieing to trans people that they had rights that they never did and now those lies have been exposed and everyone now knows what the law actually says and means so women and lgb people have had our stolen rights returned to us which has upset trans identifying people due to them having been lied to.
So to summarise any upset is the direct result of TRAs and stonewall lieing to trans identifying people its not the fault of women nor mumsnet

Totally agree.

TRAs need to educate the men. Get some placards saying 'death to men who wont let us use their areas'. Say no they don't get to bully men in dresses in their toilets, no they should not bully or mock in any other areas. They should follow the lead of women on mumsnet and be kind and tolerant to men dressed as women.

Even if we don't want them in women's area we just do no care how they present themselves to the world. But they are not women.

On reflection, if there was the hypothesis: women (on a sexed, binary basis to be able to identify the group who need to take this responsibility based on their biology at birth) must endure exclusion, loss of access, loss of privacy, dignity, autonomy and consent, and accept their due of harassment, being used in men's sexual and emotional experiences as dehumanised resources, actual assault, rape and possibly worse, in order to protect and preserve male lives -

I'm not even sure how you'd test the hypothesis.

Find two similar cities in demographics and compare data after a set period of time?

How ethical do you feel this experiment would be, and what do you feel about the sex based inequalities here? Why does a population biologically female have responsibilities and a duty to endure for a male population, based solely on binary sex?

Would you also like to clarify what you mean by ‘anti- trans’ since you have used it?

Do you mean people who don’t support male people with transgender identities accessing female single sex provisions?

Do you mean people who reject people’s statement that they are in any way the opposite sex to that which their body was formed as ?

Do you mean people who don’t believe that a female person with a transgender identity should be included in campaigns for liberating all female people from sexist discrimination?

Or do you mean someone who believes all people with transgender identities should be excluded from the same basic human rights that all people in the UK have?