AIBU to think of course all the anti-trans posts on this website and others are leading to real life harm?

So who are you blaming for the thousands of sexual and violent crimes committed against women and girls annually across the UK rail network? Is transport- based safety a genuine concern, or have you just popped in to blame women for men’s crimes?

In my case it's not just that they are men, it's that they are men who are deliberately and willfully transgressing boundaries. I view any male who starts crossing boundaries as a risk, not least because of the evidence that it escalates.

They aren’t. It’s not a criminal offence though.

There is very little evidence to link good rigorous debate online with people being harmed offline. If you think that mumsnet debate has led to the video you saw, what is the evidence to back that up?

I am a man who posts regularly on this board and I have deep concerns about women and girls being harmed - which is why I speak out to bring sense and reality into the online 'trans' debate because while there is complexity in the debate - the reality is that the people being harmed are women and children

• women and girls losing their separate spaces (loos / changing rooms / hospital wards / prison spaces / sports teams and clubs / etc.)
• women and girls being exposed to higher levels of violence e.g. in sports when a man joins a team of teenage girls in a contact sport, there is only one demographic which will suffer...
• women and girls being more vulnerable to those with nefarious intent - if we allow men into women's space (any men) then it becomes easier for those who have dodgy intent to take advantage - there is a reason that we see accurate stats on sex crimes by trans women matching those of men against women - they are men, and there will be a % with dodgy intent.
• children more generally (including boys) who are encouraged into a life path of damage to both mental and physical health - body mutilation from binders to surgery, hormones and false affirmation - all harm the child - it is already starting to be seen as one of the biggest child abuse scandals ever...

regarding suicide - this is an oft-stated 'fact' which needs asking - where are the figures coming from which support this?

The Office for National Statistics latest figures show an increased likelihood of suicide for LGB+ over heterosexual people... however

• the 'other sexuality' category (into which 'trans' would come) is lower than Lesbian / Gay / Bisexual.
• females have a statistically larger risk than males (yet in the 'trans' debate it appears to be the males / 'trans-women' who are identified at being at most risk - probably because those loudest in the debate are male and care less about the women!)
• the ONS states We cannot say from this descriptive analysis why rates of intentional self-harm and suicide for people who identify as LGB+ differ to those for people who identify as “Straight or Heterosexual”, and it is not possible to say whether sexual orientation is a causal risk factor for intentional self-harm or suicide. i.e. there is no direct causation able to be drawn.

So, while it is sad that anyone feels more suicidal - the reality is likely to sit somewhere in the space of understanding the full person. no-one is born with gender dysphoria, yet they may be born with other 'issues' such as autism where there is a statistical correlation with gender dysphoria - equally there are stats showing that there are much higher incidences of psychological / physical / sexual abuse in children who then go on in adolescence to think of themselves as 'trans'. It is not possible to isolate and state that 'trans' = higher suicide risk when you take into account that 'trans' very rarely happens in isolation of one or more co-morbidities which also have a statistical link to higher tendency towards suicide or self-harm.

There is a definite link esp. with adolescent girls between a frustration or upset around their body and 'trans' equally a feeling of a lack of power as a woman - all of which can and do come from sexual abuse / power abuse / physical abuse / psychological abuse in childhood...

what we do not see anywhere in the stats is a correlation between

• reasoned debate on mumsnet
• increased risk of suicide (in any group!)

Of course, as this is reasoned debate, there is naturally an expectation that you will want the opportunity to reply with all the evidence showing otherwise and linking suicide amongst 'trans' people with social media comment on mumsnet.

I for one, and many others no doubt, will look forward to it - it will be the first example of any such evidence...

Who has mocked trans people committing suicide?
I've read this entire thread and not one post has done so. As such I suggest that you quote the posts or it didn't happen

It is not harmful language for women to say they don’t want men in their spaces.

The only people who think this are misogynists who think predatory men are entitled to unlawfully occupy women’s spaces.

But even so - tell me how it’s a problem of women? Men are our oppressors. And they oppress each other. Why should we even consider prioritising them for a moment?

And BTW lots of men DON’T care about women and girls being harmed - but yeah sure rather than worrying about that and prioritising those women and girls we should be considering the feelings of deluded men.

I didn’t know men were allowed in women’s toilets? I have never seen a man in there apart from a cleaner.
Are women allowed in men’s toilets?

A quick google search says they are not.

Yes, same.

I'm not unsympathetic to women who want feminist spaces to be for women only.

I don't think it's very practical or likely to expect a public internet forum to be women only. It can be largely women-centred, women-led, and can prioritise women's voices. But given the numbers of anonymous people visiting and posting, it's not ever going to be 'single sex'.

But - how would you be able to tell?

You're making up absolute nonsense. We can all read the thread, OP.

No its about pro women groups being blamed for mens actions and slandering us as anti trans

It's not 'bigotry' to say that women are human and deserve human rights.

Misgender 😂 I will now shrivel away into nothing

Well Munroe Bergdorf once referred to Mumsnet as a “radicalisation portal” because women increasingly felt empowered to tell him no when he tried to tell them what to do.

It’s a good thing that women feel empowered to stand up for themselves, and really only misogynists like him would think otherwise. I as a gender critical feminist have frequently been abused and had death and rape threats. JKR quipped that she could paper her house with them. But I’m sure you are aware of how much vile abuse GC women get “Mouldemort”

Its not just toilets though its changing facilities, rape crisis centres, sports, hospital wards, prisons care workers doing intimate care, awards, all women seats and positions to name but a few.
Its also not just about safety but dignity and privacy aswell all of which are removed from women when you allow trans identifying males into womens single sex spaces, facilities and groups.
Oh and its not transwomen its men all men even those who identify as women or nonbinary.
Any male who enters a female single sex spaces especially knowing that they aren't wanted there are predatory males

The level of abuse and hatred women receive for not enabling men's delusions by allowing access to women's areas has massively increased.

Dress as yuu wish but you cannot change sex. The sooner the trans community and their allies accept this the sooner we can all move on.

Yes sir ! Signing out ;-)

Probably best to get your facts straight before you come out with uninformed nonsense in one of the spaces on the internet which is most informed on this issue. Have a nice holiday!

'My God, this and the posters mocking trans people dying either by suicide or otherwise are despicable. You callousness is genuinely disturbing'

Who has mocked them? What we have said is women are not responsible for men's mental health problems. Trans people like everyone can access professional mental healthcare. Why do you think that is mocking?

I know a lot of transgender people with trans men and non binary people in the majority, and the level of abuse and hatred they receive has increased. They cite Mumsnet unprompted as an influence on this. “Sex realists” like “race realists” give people permission to express their bigotry.

1035

Maybe do some research off Mumsnet then on neutral polls about whether women (female ones) support single sex spaces? Yougov did a poll showing only 20% of people supported trans identifying makes in female single sex spaces.

Yes thats 1030 odd individuals, not the same ones 😂

You do undertand lots of posters are coming and going, not the same ones here 24/7?

The thing is a lot of women hold the same views, that is the inconvenient truth.

Men can wear dresses but it does not make them women.