To be shocked at ‘school readiness’

I absolutely agree with a lot of this. But I think a lot of things like this made more of a difference in deprived areas, at early intervention eg identifying families who may be at risk of neglecting their children (also the health visiting service which has been scaled back).

I don't think any of these services or groups would have been that relevant in middle class areas in the context of getting kids to put on their own coat, use cutlery, say please and thank you, as these types of very basic like skills wouldn't ever have been picked up at any playgroup or baby or toddler led centre and don't meet thresholds of early help. So to me it seems that there is something wider going on in society than lack of government support snd local child groups (which I think are crucial for other things)

Ok let's assume half the class may be undiagnosed SEN.

What's the reason for the other 15 DCs parents not ensuring their child could do the basics and be ready for school?

@MyEasterBonnet is there anything you'd recommend for year 7 school readiness? I've just tested year 6 DS1 and he knows his address (and can tie laces and read an analogue watch). We are working on packing his own bag in the mornings/for clubs but it's still hit and miss.

My granddaughter can do most of these things at age 21/2 as she has been in a nursery since 9 months old for three days a week.

She showed me the trick of putting on her coat by laying it on the floor and flipping it over her head - I myself could not do that!

My daughter is not an overly strict mum, they let her watch children’s tv while they sit with her and sing the songs or point out colours and shapes.

She is not yet toilet trained but goes to the bathroom when my daughter goes to introduce her to how to use a fouler or potty and loves washing her hands before leaving.

Her language skills are age appropriate, she’s moved on from chattering nonsense non stop to using recognisable words in short sentences. Unfortunately she’s picked up the local accent from her nursery staff which sounds a bit odd to how her parents speak! No is definitely one of her words but so is please and thank you, she can say thank you without prompting but sometimes needs reminding to say please when she wants something instead of shouting!

Her parents are very involved in her life, they sit on the floor and play with her and involve her in “helping” them so housework or cook. Her favourite morning activity at the moment is charging downstairs to see what new creation has been made for her with magna tiles overnight. Any my house she immediately gets out to duplo train set and is able to put the track together although not necessarily in the correct place!

She is a normal little girls, her parents do go on their phones sometimes when sitting with her and she loves looking at photos of herself and their pets. I know the time will come when she wants to play games on a tablet but at the moment listening to audio books or nursery rhymes is enough technology for now.

I hope that by the time she starts school she will have a lot more skills.

Yes, exactly!

I mean to put on their coat and shoes not read.

Time pressured isn’t an excuse to not parent.

Most children are dropped to school (or breakfast club) between 8.15-8.45am. You can get up 10 minutes early for some coat and shoe putting on for a week or so until they learn. It’s so basic and not really that much parenting.

It’s lazy and boring listening to excuses.

I got up at whatever time was needed to achieve what was needed. I loved teaching our children the basics, it was endlessly hilarious (if you want the selfish side of that’s more appealing to some).

Little wellies on the wrong feet “do they feel comfortable?” Until you point out the big toe positioning and shape of footwear etc etc.

Going to the toilet is personal hygiene, it wasn’t something I wanted others to teach our children. Nursery school obviously worked along side, with an amazing key worker who when I first handed over a change of underwear just heaped praise on him, but we did the training. It should be personal toileting not something your reception class experiences.

The parents with endless excuses they’re not ready (our youngster thought he wasn’t ready he was but there was a few days of defiant stand off), I have to drive to work, I can’t get up a bit earlier, school will do it. Whatever the excuse, because that’s what it is. They are failing their children, they wouldn’t have a job to drive to if they failed like this at work. But for some reason they can justify failing their own utterly dependent and trusting small child.

They are just dreadful parents.

It’s nothing to do with starting school.
These are normal milestones and behaviours that children of 4-5y should be able to do in the absence of of SEN/ medical issues etc…provided they have been taught and supported at home.

Starting school just makes it apparent when this hasn’t happened. It doesn’t suddenly make children unable to recognise their names, know how to turn a page in a book, which way up to hold a book(!) etc.

As you have probably been told by PPs, it is disingenuous to suggest that in Europe they start school later. Children of 3-5y will generally by in Kindergarten and the expectations would be similar.

So you are saying this is ok ?

-dont recognise their own name.
-They walk away while you are actively talking to them
-Nor a single child has used manners, pleas or thank yous, without being prompted to do so during the whole 2 weeks.
-dont take their coats to their pegs. Children are taking off their coats at the door, dropping them to the floor and walking away.
-close a toilet cubicle door or pull their pants up before they walk back into class (our toilets are directly off the classroom)

I would be embarrassed if my child behaved like this.

The point is no teacher can say at 5 that any dc definitely does not have SEND. Most SEND dc we know were not dx by 5. Any teacher or TA will know there will be undx dc with SEND in reception classes and they can’t at that stage tell the difference between those dc and dc who could have learned these skills but haven’t due to parental/childcare approaches

Do you know which children went to nursery and which ones were at home? Is there a difference?

In the Soviet Union nursing mother's were expected to work full time while their babies were left in creches or nurseries in the factories and on collective farms. They had laws called anti-parasite laws which meant it was illegal for mothers not to work. I'm sure the children were fully institutionalised by the time they started school. All sounds pretty grim to me.

Op what is your view of the fact, as many posters are pointing out, most of these children would have been in nursery or childcare before starting school?

They would know all those routines. The nurseries my dc went to were very strict. I remember seeing three year olds lining up to clean their teeth after lunch every day. They were strict about table manners and sitting while eating etc. When my dc left I was given a booklet of all their assessments and some of their ‘’work’ eg tracing their names etc. The school nursery was even more regimented and definitely would have prepared them for full-time school.

My dc also went to several different childminders and there is no way they would have allowed children to drop their coats on the floor. They have to encourage all their mindees to be independent or they can’t do their job.

I fully accept what you are seeing but wondering ‘why.’

Agree. It’s like to trying to reason with a toddler who wants to pick up a wine bottle in a supermarket - using your words and avoiding using the word no just doesn’t work for many. This attitude of not wanting to use the word no or meekly asking youngsters to do something has extended a lot.

I'm not sure why there are a lot of replies saying 'well they're too little to go to school anyway'. 4-5 may be young for some formal learning but I absolutely not too young to be able to go to the toilet independently, to know how to use a knife and fork even if they can't cut up something hard like a crusty potato skin, to take their coat on and off, to not wander off in the middle of an adult speaking to them, to sit still for 10 minutes for a story, or to say please and thank you. I'm not saying they should be able to do all these things perfectly all the time but they should know how to do most of these things most of the time by 4.

Some of the replies on this thread are the exact reason that so many children and not school ready!
and ffs not every little sod has sen

All the OP said was "These are not SEN children who are developmentally delayed" i.e. the children who are the focus of the thread are non-SEN kids. Presumably she said that to head off all the "but what about SEN" comments. Yet here we are...

Hi OP

Do you know what proportion of the kids I the class have been to nursery? Even if the parents are shit, if a child has been at nursery I'm surprised that they haven't learnt things like taking their coat on and off and putting it on a peg as that's a basic nursery routine.

Curious to know what you think the cause of this is OP? Gentle parenting? Although I'd expect gentle parents to model manners so why is it not getting through? I don't think it can be blamed on working parents - me and a lot of my friends work full time or almost full time and I don't recognise this behaviour. Top much screen time, from how bad it is, some kids must spend literally all their time on a screen. But I'd have assumed that kids who spend loads of time on screens would also have things like toilet breaks. Do you think as a society there will be any way of reversing this trend?

In countries where children "start school" later they all have highly subsidised government funded childcare before that. For example in Sweden https://sweden.se/life/society/the-swedish-school-system

My son is now 13 and I feel that a lot has changed for the worse in the last 10 years.

We had a lovely few years, attending surestart, rhymetime, church play groups (which cost a £1), alongside a cople of paid for groups or soft plays that took our fancy.

All of that helped contrbute to the skills the op is talking qbout. Then a number of things happened:

1. closure of sure start centres - they gently and kindly helped parents from all walks of life parent
2. brexit - not brexit itself but the political infighting and distraction it caused. How many Education Ministers did we have? Where was the government when 'Candy and Vapes' opened on my local highstreet?
3. Covid - lots of these cheap informal toddler activitues closed never to open again. We all.stopped doing stuff, some people just never restarted.
4. cost of living. I dont know if I could afford to do all the things now, that I used to do.
5. mobile phone apps designed to be addictiv6
6. county council funding - in my area.anyway, they used to give a lot more monet grass roots and local charities that supported families or put on community events
7. Then there are some instances of crap parenting

What I noticed coming up again and again on home visits, was parents saying their child struggled with hearing 'no' and needed lots of explaining and encouraged into doing what you wanted. This came into play with some in nappies too. Well over half the class had parents worried about this.

Must say, after a few bouts of screaming at 'no' they've all done pretty well with it and it's sinking in fast... Turns out it was only actually one kid who genuinely is distressed by it (not annoyed) and that child is doing really well after beginning to form a bond with staff. I imagine this has a lot to do with their independence issues to be honest, if they're not being made to learn things they don't want to.

Which other countries are you referring to?

Throughout my career, I have traveled to and worked with people across the world and I have been surprised by the level of independence expected from children at a young age (3+ years old). In the Nordic countries, they may not be in a school setting but they are in kindergarten from 3 years old. They are very much expected to put on their full winter clothes to play outside in -20c.

Whilst I was walking my 7 year old child to school, the child of my German colleague was cycling 3 miles to school at the same age. The child of my Greek colleague was taking the bus alone at 7am to their school.

I am also so tired of the SEN reasoning that many spout. Several of my friends have SEN children, they are the most dedicated parents I have ever known. Parenting is hard and unrelenting for SEN parents, however most I have known work tirelessly to teach their children whatever basic skills they can. My own niece has ASD and is non verbal, it has not been easy for my sister but she has able to toilet train her, teach her how to make simple food and brush her teeth. It’s far from easy but it is possible.

In comparison, my son went on a school trip and many of his NT classmates couldn’t make their own beds, didn’t know how to put a cover on their duvet and pillows. One had never even buttered their own toast at 12 years old. Parents are failing their own children if they do not teach them basic life skills. Schools cannot and should not be teaching everything.

A wider family member has three children and lives in a deprived area. She still manages to bring up well mannered children. Please and thank you and potty trained by three.
I remember my son couldn't go to nursery at 3 unless he was potty trained. My DD has SEN but was still trained by two I think?
We both had phones but have never allowed them at the table. Both DC are big techies.

My response was to OP saying none of the children in question have SEND. My point in response to OP saying that was that she can't know that every single child she is talking about doesn't have any potential SEND after only 2 weeks when they are 4 years old. I'm not saying all of them have SEND, of course not.

That's all.

Before my DC started reception we received a letter about preparing for school. It listed the basics, I was surprised. Things like

Putting shoes on (recommend velcro fastening)
Fastening coat after putting it on
Using a knife and fork
Sitting at a table for meals
Recognising their name (so they could find their peg/tray).
Going to the toilet alone
Washing hands

I ensured we covered at home too. I was shocked that children couldn't do this by 4, and some were almost 5.

Manners were a given. Why would you not teach your child please/thank you.

If teachers are busy doing the stuff parents should be doing who is doing the education?