To be shocked at ‘school readiness’

And educational standards in Scotland are at rock bottom. By all accounts, the free play aspect of primary school is chaos and doesn't actually teach the children anything useful. Many children are very much ready to learn at age 4, and certainly 5. Lots of children start school in England at age 4 being able to read and even write a bit. My DC would have hated "free play" for 2 years. Even nursery to age 4 wasn't free play, and the children thrived there.

Exactly. SEN almost makes good manners more important. If an SEN child is well mannered, it highlights the SEN more as anomalous and hopefully signposts this to the school. Although many schools are invested in ignoring so...

It’s not some screen time that’s the problem. It’s how much and what that child is exposed to ( shorts on you tube which give a dopamine hit but lack concentration) and if it is used instead of play. Eg I’ve had conversations with families where … ‘oh but they can learn that on the tablet, watching this or playing that. They can do a jigsaw on it.’ If the tv is on but your child is being played/interaction with, has access to toys and other resources besides the screen. The screen isn’t the issue.

It’s not the same as physical play where children develop motor skills, spacial awareness, concentration. etc. It’s also apparent that we as adults are often ourselves addicted to our phones and i’ve visibly watched parents on their phones while children are trying to play with them and are being ignored as the adult is glued to their phone. Im not judging that parent we are all addicted to tech and it’s not a good thing.

This combined with modern life of rushing around: two parents working, weekends spent having to go places and sort the house etc. Plus permissive/gentle parenting and those that don’t give their children independence and chance to do things themselves.

Also comments about children in nursery should have those skills. Children absolutley learn things at nursery but if things aren’t reinforced at home then those skills can absolutely be lost. I remeber in my nursery days 20 years ago when you nailed toilet training m-f then some parents just stuck them in pull ups as busy over the weekend and it was like starting again come Monday. It was expected for us to do all the hard work because that’s what they paid for….. this is twenty 5 years + ago.

And parents who don't believe it.

Every incidence of bad behaviour was dealt with at home with my DC. Consequences for their actions were always implemented. It went on for 3 years until they were ADHD medicated.

The sad thing was school denied ADHD. Said DC was naughty. THAT was down to the school. Denying SEN just adds to the schools burden.

I've helped in reception classes and it's not like this at all thankfully. Yes the odd child but usually due to SEN. I've seen my own kids cohorts all hang up their coats on the way in and such like. Yes some are horrors when the parents aren't there. But the general behaviour described here isn't normal to what I've seen

It’s a mix of screens and excuses. Walking around a large shopping centre where I live is depressing. Pre schoolers being in pushed around in buggies, glued to screen. Some parents have given themselves a free pass on the basis that they believe their children have SEN (and I say this as the mother of a DC with SEN) They just don’t bother teach their children manners or life skills. Being a teacher now is incredibly challenging because of this

Teenagers having children? What, in the UK, What do the statistics say about teenage pregnancies in the UK?

They can't refuse to admit children

Possibly a bit ironically, my daughter started to have a tantrum about not being allowed on a screen as I wrote this. It then meant my comment wasn't nearly as detailed as I meant.

I agree that it's parenting not wanting to say and not being willing to take the negative behaviour when they initially do. Therefore they never bother and the child never learns.

Not recognising their own name suggests they aren’t talked to very much at home. It seems really sad and also borderline neglectful.

Yes that's true. So what's going on that it's barely seen in some areas and so horrific in others? I don't believe it's a working class vs middle thing and I think op has indicated she feels the same?

Half the class can't have special needs - unless special needs now means not being properly socialised in the first place. Does it? Perhaps we should go back to one parent being at home with small DC (doesn't matter which parent, probably). We need employment arrangements that facilitate this.

I see that nursery school is compulsory in France from the age of 2 to 3.

"Nursery schools in France traditionally offer three classes corresponding to three age groups: the small section (PS), the middle section (MS) and the large section (GS), and sometimes also has a very small section (TPS) for children under three years old.
Before the start of the school year in 2019, attendance at nursery school was not mandatory — education of children was only compulsory from the year in which the child celebrated his sixth birthday. The law promulgated on July 28, 2019, lowered the age of compulsory schooling for children to the year in which they have their third birthday."

And yet our PISA results our ranked higher than all European countries except Estonia so this dreadful parenting obviously hasn't impacted their education as much as this thread is making everyone believe.

So what that kids walk to school at six, Mumsnet is obsessed with this notion of Independence and the made up impacts on teenagers/young adults. It is not true that is your parents don't let you walk on your own to school at six you are going to be unable to cook at uni or something such bollox! Some of us quite liked walking our young children to school because you know, we loved them and their company and cherished our time with them. Pretty crucial for emotional development being cherished you know!

Not rtft but I would imagine some of these children are as young as 4. Babies really.
I don’t think we should start formal education until age 7.
Scotland has got better with the transition from Nursery to Primary School. Where Primary 1 & 2 is all about free play.
Children in Scotland are entitled to Pre-School Nursery then start school generally age 5. Some are still 4 but soon to turn 5.
Although as a previous HV I do think some parents are a part of the problem.

I wish I had an answer for this myself. The astounding deterioration in children's behaviour I continue to see - It’s just baffling. I don't know if it's teenagers having children; teenagers who are not emotionally developed themselves, or self-entitled young adults having children and following this whole 'gentle parenting and feral child' culture (a bit harsh with the feral! But it's that idea of allowing children to wholly decide on how they go about their day that might just be resulting in your classroom situation!). I'd love to see more studies on this, more answers, theories etc.

I do feel for you, OP I cannot imagine how vexing it must be when instead of educating them you end up teaching them simple life skills.

Same SIL regularly tells me/DH/Teachers that her DS "would never lie to me" and uses that as a reason to insist that whatever the teachers/other children are saying is completely wrong.....

I hear you OP.

But how many of those countries require children to go to nursery school, which turns out to be similar to our Reception?

Agree. The furore over school uniform as an example.

My AuDHD child wears uniform despite sensory issues. Manners are drilled in. Potty trained by 3 1/2 (took a YEAR but we did it). Homework part of the daily routine.

Why are almost 4 year olds walking around in nappies?????

I really wish the Conservatives hadn't cut SureStart.

Every £1 spent on early interventions saves something like £2 down the line in public savings. But I guess it's easier to put the blame on shit parents, SEN, iPads etc than demand change or even vote accordingly.

My ex (30 years since) was a headteacher, and would send a letter to prospective parents listing what the children needed to be able to do before starting school.
This included dressing themselves, toilet training, knowing colours, their own name etc There were more that I can’t remember.
Maybe each school should do this, and refuse to admit children until they achieved the list.

But kids have always started school young, so I never understand this argument

I started school at 4, 60 years ago. It was unheard of for a child to still be in nappies. Same 30 years ago when my own children started school. According to my niece, a reception teacher, it's really not uncommon now. Almost 25% of kids start school without being fully toilet trained. It eats into education time and it's not a teachers job to be changing nappies. I doubt children have changed, it has to be down to parenting.

This!
I teach secondary and am amazed this year at the new first year pupils who cannot sit still, listen when I am speaking and follow instructions. Nevermind how low ability their writing is due to a clear lack of reading at home.

I do find it surprising especially given that a large majority of children attend nursery before school where they definitely do all of the above from the age of 2 upwards!

DS2 is 4 and can definitely put his coat on himself but struggles to zip it up.

I think reception starts too young though and you can have a 4 year old who has been 4 for a few days within it!
I'm thankful to be in Scotland where school can start later and DS2 is deferred til next year where he will be 5 and a half rather then 4 and a half.