Welsh teenagers 2 years of education behind English teenagers

Changes to the Welsh curriculum taking it in line with the Scottish happened after the decline in standards in Scotland was observable. I watched it happen with dismay and was pleased to be able to send my children to school in England (we live on the border). The emphasis on skills rather than knowledge is disastrous. Nothing to do with Welsh teaching though, teaching another language from a young age is beneficial.

It’s very interesting that a previous poster thought that Gove’s reforms were a universal disaster. They really were not, even if some bits weren’t ideal.

The Welsh and Scottish curriculum changes that happened post devolution are similar and are having similar results. Learning of knowledge has been downplayed and learning of soft skills has been centred more. The Gove reforms to English education has a strong knowledge-rich emphasis.

Feel free to make of the results what you will. I know which system is rather have my kids learning under.

But it’s very rare for Irish students to learn maths and science in the Irish language and the PISA will be done in English. There aren’t many purely Irish medium secondary schools.

In Wales, students in Welsh medium schools do the PISA in Welsh not English. If Irish students were quizzed about algebra in Irish they would likely do far worse than the Welsh.

It's also worth noting that some of the Welsh-medium schools in Cardiff (a place where few speak it as a first language) are very sought-after. Clearly even English-speaking parents recognise the value of language education.

It's really disappointing that this potentially interesting thread has been derailed by the usual bickering about Welsh language education, which probably determines 1% of overall outcomes but seems to occupy 99% of the conversation.

My children learn everything through the medium of Welsh - even French! Discussions on English books in English literature classes will be in Welsh and it is absolutely the normal everyday language for people where I live - and yes, that includes babbling toddlers. Typical mumsnet to assume Welsh is a token language that nobody uses. Not learning Welsh when it is mandatory for public sector roles puts children at a huge disadvantage.

Are you seriously describing the first language (one of only two language groups actually native to the British Isles, the other being Gaelic) of half a million people as a "hobby"?

Apart from anything else, being bilingual from an early age helps children with reasoning, memory and problem-solving skills.

Admittedly a very long time ago but I attended a school in Wales where I was taught Welsh, French and German alongside English lessons. Why do some posters think being taught Welsh in Wales of all places limits students?

You're just being ridiculous. They can learn Welsh, English lit and a foreign language. Why limit them? Students in other European countries often learn two or three languages. Very English centric attitude.

Of course teaching minority languages is a negative

Have you any evidence to back this up? Irish children are doing better than their peers in NI, England, Scotland and Wales and learning Irish is a huge part of their curriculum so I'd like to see your evidence that it's a negative. They're ranked first for reading in the EU. And of course they learn another foreign language too, sometimes two if they choose to. Amazing what a well rounded flexible curriculum can achieve.

And it's hardly their 'native language ' if they need it teaching to them in school. I would have thought native speakers would be chattering away like budgies from babyhood if it really were their native language,
You're just showing your ignorance here

Well they could just be taught Welsh. With no English Literature or English Language lessons. That would free up the timetable space and make Wales more Welsh.

Are you aware of the outcome of the recent election in Wales?

Like everything else in Wales, Welsh outcomes, health, wealth and education are way behind England. Thats what years of Labour control and socialism does to a country. And still people vote them

it's only not the native language of the majority of the population because it was actively discouraged and even legislated against by the english for centuries. If anything the fact it survived should be celebrated. If all schools in wales moved to only teaching in welsh and had english as a second language, within 2 generations it would no longer be a minority language.

I love the way that if someone suggested the populations of malta or croatia or mongolia, were taught in english rather than their native language you'd be accused of being racist but for welsh it's fine!

also MFL are ALSO taught in welsh schools! It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Learning another language is self evidently useful, but learning one with more speakers than Welsh will be a lot more useful. There are about 75 million French speakers in the world, and about 519 million Spanish speakers. Using up the time available for teaching a second language to learn one spoken by half a million people is quite a lot less useful. Added to which all the Welsh speakers can speak English, so communication would not be a problem.
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English is taught in English schools so why would welsh in wales be any different? You are doing the same learning the vocabulary, reading welsh language books and poetry. I find this argument re welsh language education is often from those who have no idea how it works. Does learning another language alongside English from an early age mean all children that do this will have low educational attainment, I think not.

It sounds like it’s not a Gaelic Medium school, and if not then Gaelic is most likely being taught as one of the two modern languages that Scottish schoolchildren are introduced to in primary school. There’s always one or two alternatives to a Gaelic Medium school in any catchment, so this definitely doesn’t ring true.

Universally accepted perhaps except in the universe, where standards rose significantly in the PISA tests

Oh yes you're right - they were beaten recently weren't they, forgot about that. However the Labour party are the ones who have left the legacy of shit schools / schooling, in Wales. Still we need Labour out of power in England, they are destructive.

Eta. And healthcare. You'd think England would watch and learn.

Of course teaching minority languages is a negative, if it's using school teaching time to the detriment of other subjects. I thought we might have moved on from attempting to limit young people's life chances.

And it's hardly their 'native language ' if they need it teaching to them in school. I would have thought native speakers would be chattering away like budgies from babyhood if it really were their native language, and using school time to improve their maths and English, or horror of horrors, maybe learning a modern foreign language so they could widen their horizons a little?

My controversial view is that devolution has overall not been a success for Wales, at least from a policy pov. (I understand it's not just about policy outcomes and is an emotive topic. I support language promotion and think devolution in Scotland has worked so I'm not coming from a pro-Westminster stance).

But both education and healthcare are in needlessly poor states right now. Healthcare in North Wales is straight up abysmal. The government is not doing a good job and I would argue that's because the pool of leaders is too small and blinkered.

Doesn't Wales have a huge amount of child poverty? I would have thought that is likely to affect education rates.

Curriculum needs "dumbing down" anyway doesn't it? I thought the Gove reforms were almost universally considered to have been a disaster.

YABU because your choices are so inflammatory! Is this because of stupid Labour or not basically. I'm v interested to know what the reasons for the difference are but I'm not an educator or a researcher with any evidence about all the factors so it's difficult to say. I would be confident to say it's worth finding out if curriculum changes are a factor and that's about it.

Learning the language of your community is certainly not a hobby. I agree the ratings are low and need to be addressed but in Wales there is a big emphasis on play based learning rather than phonics etc in reception which is often seen as a positive. Ds school in rural wales just got 4 into oxbridge and this is a state school. I think that there is a much broader picture that needs to be looked at alongside these results such as rurality, social mobility and poverty. These are not an excuse but certainly need dealing with. You would hope Plaid will see this and do something.

Welsh Labour are not in power in Wales.