Welsh teenagers 2 years of education behind English teenagers

Are you sure science has been reduced to one GCSE? I'm pretty sure double award science is the norm, meaning physics, chemistry and biology are taught and examined as a unified course leading to two GCSEs being awarded. As far as I know this is pretty standard in England too.

What had been proposed was that single sciences (individual GCSEs in physics, chemistry and biology, also called "triple award") would no longer be offered. This change has been paused pending a review in 2028.

English students aren't 2 years behind.

You could argue any subject is a waste of time. Why bother studying drama/ DT/ sports/ religion/ geography none of those count towards PISA.

Welsh language can certainly fit in a broad balanced curriculum.

And as for the argument why do they need to study it all the way to 16 if learnt at home, English students study English Language to GCSE - why is that any different?

The irony

Because they're busy learning Welsh?
You could argue that that's a waste of time

I don’t understand why “inequality” and socio economic factors are always offered up as the No 1 reason.
London has some of the highest child poverty rates in the entire country yet is a top performer (not just PISA, GCSE KS2 etc).
Same for much of China (PISA), plenty kids there not advantaged socio economically.
PISA may just be one form of test but if it aligns with GCSE and KS2 results more widely it isn;t just one facet. It is part of the picture.

If many/most current parents don’t speak Welsh then your suggestion is absurd

education researcher here...

Few things to note:
1, Pisa scores are good in some manners but unreliable in others. Don't disregard them, but don't treat them as universal fact. E.g. years ago when they first introduced China to the PISA tables, it topped them massively. What followed was a clamor of politicians and companies trying to find out and copy how China manages their education programs.

In reality, the PISA trial with China only included select schools from Shanghai, China's richest city.. so in effect they were comparing entire diverse countries, to just the best students in the richest city of China, and funnily enough finding that those students do rather well.

So be a bit careful with PISA outcomes

2, Wales vs UK is a pointless comparison without regional breakdowns. in effect, in terms of size, population and distribution, Wales compares better to a region of the UK, rather than to the whole thing. I don't believe PISA scores differentiate between areas of the UK, but I would be entirely confident that what you will find is that London and the south east do much better than other regions, and that Wales is pretty comparable to the north of England in results.

3, However, with the disclaimers aside, could Wales just have poor educational policies? Absolutely. socio-economic factors do play a part, but only in conjunction with proper educational practices, and the reason for the difference is almost certainly a bit of both. However, to what extent is the Welsh government's fault, and to what extent it is the result of wider inequality - that would need much more focused research than PISA provides. I'm sure research on this already exists, if you want to find it.

England did particularly well in PISA relative to other European OECD countries. It is easy to always blame the politics and education system. But the scores of a lot of European countries have gone down and it is largely being attributed to screen time, smart phones and the massive decline in literacy (linked to the former).
Literacy cannot just be delivered at school alone. Children need a passion for reading widely and extensively.
It is a bit cheap to blame it on the Welsh language. Generally speaking learning any other language is hugely beneficial.
If GCSE Science is down to just 1 GCSE that is an issue compared to English schools which do teach Science very well. In fact it is Science England has truly excelled in in PISA.
England in the league tables is up there with the pushy Asian educational systems now.
To be honest, all the research shows that to access the sophisticated modern economies that we live in all humans in those societies need a high level of literacy and numeracy. So yes, it is important.

@Blushingm it gets very boring constantly having to defend the Welsh language. Where I live Welsh is nearly everyones first language, the language of their choice, of their family, community and their history.

Most Irish people don’t consider it nonsense.
It could be taught better though.

Yes of course, the changes are often just political whim.

The problem with Wales is the Welsh government. We have had quarter of a century of Labour. During that time devolution has spawned an industry dedicated to making Wales much more Welsh than it used to be or most people need it to be. We are poorer as a result. It is a case of who you know, not what you know. The concept of a single Welsh nation is a fiction. Wales was only briefly united before being joined with England after the Norman invasion. Healthcare and Education have suffered, I could tell you stories that would break your hearts about how awful the care is here.

Bloody Gaeilge! It’s a ridiculously huge part of the curriculum all the way up to Leaving Cert level and needs to be scrapped as a compulsory subject after Primary and made optional. Far too much time is wasted on this nonsense.

But don’t about 20% of secondary school students in Wales attend Welsh-medium schools?

Because the majority of Welsh people speak English only so it’s entirely different. English is taught in Welsh schools in the same way as English is taught in English schools. Welsh is taught as a 2nd language the same was French or German is

As already said in an earlier contribution lrish kids all learn lrish at school right up to 18 and yet their education system is featuring high on all European scores. Our doctors, engineers, nurses etc are highly regarded across the world and the vast majority of students take a degree with a high percentage at Masters level. Education is about life as well as your career and that's why l think its good we keep a broad range of subjects right to the end so we have a well rounded student emerging from Secondary school. The biggest obstacle to success is poverty and not learning your local languag

Welsh language schools used to perform far better than the English schools in Wales. Something else must be the reason for the drop in achievement.

Welsh language in school is a diversion in this debate, not the reason for lower achievement. The main effect of Welsh language in school is a two-tier primary school system. Usually the Welsh medium primary is sought after and the English medium primary is shunned. So the former is full of families who value education (which tends to have more engaged parents, more reading at home, more cultural capital etc) and the latter tends towards the more chaotic and disengaged families which translates into more disrupted classroom time, less parental help with reading, fewer financial contributions towards trips and clubs etc). In areas with a choice, the trend reverses for secondary. It’s the same in areas of England with grammar schools - the comps are not actually comprehensive anymore. And it becomes much harder to lift lower attainers in this environment.

Add to this a chaotic and narrow curriculum and ta da! Low attainment for all.

YY, absolutely I am not meaning to put everything onto the reform.

Understaffing, underprovision of resources both in MS and also in terms of lack of specialist places, CAMHS basically being in freefall, a complete lack of any kind of early intervention, wait lists longer than a child's life - it all adds up to a really shit picture.

Interestingly Denmark was lower down the ranking than the UK average- think Finland was too. Maybe we shouldn’t be puting so much emphasis on them or maybe we aren’t really that bad after all? Headlines can be misleading.

Having taught in both England and Scotland, I would absolutely loathe for my child to be under the English education system because the academic pressure over the well-being of the child is absolutely not worth it.

And I definitely feel happier teaching in Scotland too.

Devolution at its finest. I’m sure they’ll fall further behind under Plaid because they’ll push the Welsh language agenda even further.

It’s pretty widely recognised that the Barnett formula is outdated and unfair.

No, it’s what years of a totally unfair funding settlement, which does not take into account the particular geographical and demographic challenges of Wales, does to a country. And that’s why Wales voted Plaid Cymru in, for a government that is not in the pocket of the Labour government in Westminster and will actually fight for Welsh interests.

So , so deluded. Its embarrassing. 30 years of evidence and its still blame Westminster, geography and evil tories etc. On every metric possible Wales is behind England. Even rugby