Welsh teenagers 2 years of education behind English teenagers

I spent six weeks in Gwynedd in 1999 and it was extremely common to meet people that didn't speak English to a 'usable' level. I was quite shocked that the younger people, especially, 'struggled' with English. I'd expected full bilingual ability and that's not what I encountered.

I've not been back there in the past twenty years, so things might have changed, but the government is now legally obliged to promote the Welsh language (which seems reasonable, given the history).

Clywch clywch!

Possibly, but once you know a second language it is easier to pick up a third.

The benefits are in the way the brain processes things, not just language.

Oh and Patagonia is not exactly a small place.

The state of some of this.

Welsh medium pupils generally do better at GCSEs than English medium counterparts, that trend is reversed for PISA results. So I can only assume that the test doesn't translate perfectly? I can't explain that.

Wales has always been at the bottom of every league table for everything, pre-devolution.

These results are measure of the old system, one that we've changed.

My kids are WM educated. My son just got A* in all three sciences, Maths and an A English Language and Literature in his second language. WM education achieves incredible things.

I'm not having anyone outside Wales tell me that Welsh kids shouldn't learn Welsh. It's their fucking birthright. Our culture is our own to manage, thanks. If kids need more time for maths then we'll decide where to find it. Diolch.

To add to this. It might have been the case back in the 50s that some people didn’t pick up English to a usable level, but these days, what with the internet, films and tv, English print media, and of course the amount of non Welsh speaking retirees and second home owners, it’s really not a problem.

only 18% of Welsh people speak Welsh at all. There is no official record that I can see of the number of people who can’t speak English, it’s thought to be absolutely tiny if any

Only about 1% speak Irish as a first language though.

In North Wales, people speak it natively at home and are educated in Welsh. They are fully immersed in Welsh. They learn English as a foreign language. Not everybody is going to pick up English to a usable level and they're then stuck living in a very small part of the UK with very limited opportunities. It will also limit the possibilities/probabilities of larger (especially foreign) companies opening sites, such as back office functions, in that area.

Do you actually live in North Wales?

Ireland seems to be able to manage this conundrum?

I certainly don't think the Welsh language should be suppressed.

There are consequences, though, to speaking it as a native language.

In North Wales, people speak it natively at home and are educated in Welsh. They are fully immersed in Welsh. They learn English as a foreign language. Not everybody is going to pick up English to a usable level and they're then stuck living in a very small part of the UK with very limited opportunities. It will also limit the possibilities/probabilities of larger (especially foreign) companies opening sites, such as back office functions, in that area.

The positives are that Welsh communities in that area aren't just comprised of villages full of pensioners, due to all the young people moving to the bigger cities.

It's obviously a trade-off, but there's almost certainly a correlation between a lack of high paying private sector jobs and poor English language ability in those regions.

People who find learning Welsh worthless would do well to find out a little about the erasure of the Irish language and how the education system has brought it back into Irish life.

it’s to be celebrated always. Stating a native language is a wasteful time is shamefully ignorant and xenophobic

I think that's very regrettable. I really hope the review in 2028 leads to that aspect of the plan being ditched. But removing the option of triple science and introducing a new single GCSE integrated science option - which I strongly suspect and hope will only be used for a minority of pupils - is not the same as "reducing science to one GCSE".

I know of schools in England which enter a minority of pupils for BTEC Level 1 introductory award in applied science as an alternative to GCSE double award combined science. Maybe you could say science in England had been reduced to zero GCSEs, but I think that would also be misleading.

Except that some languages are more equal than others when it comes to being useful, unless your ambition is that your children should only ever live and work in one small place.

Triple is being scrapped. Your kids will be some of the last to have that as an option. It will be double or single, competing against kids who can do triple as standard.

Yes, but how many schools are offering it as the main science course for GCSE pupils? Double award combined science and triple award physics/chemistry/biology options are still offered.

My children's school is entering most pupils double award science as before, and maintaining the option to study all three sciences for separate GCSEs. A very small minority who find the GCSE workload particularly challenging are offered the single award integrated science option.

Saying "science has been reduced to one GCSE" as if that applies across the board gives entirely the wrong idea.

Believe what you want, but they only spoke English to a 'D in French at GCSE' level.

Have you spent any time in that part of the country?

The new integrated science GCSE is single award.

There are a lot of benefits to knowing a second language and it is irrelevant what the language is.

If their parents don't speak welsh, then it is not their home languge in the first place.

I think the Welsh govt (of any colour) has completely failed the children of Wales for more than a decade, and their education should be brought back under Westminster, or at least Westminster send in a team to reset policy and undo the damage.

If I had a 4yo in Wales, I'd be moving across the border asap to give my child a better chance at life.

This is possibly one of the most ignorant things I've read on mumsnet, fair play to you (chwarae teg!)

"Barely spoke English at all"?! Sorry, but I just don't believe you. Perhaps you struggled to understand them, but would you visit Newcastle or Middlesbrough and claim people there "barely spoke English at all"?

Come to think of it, perhaps you would!

I had to do a university project one summer in North Wales. We went out in Caernarfon a few times at the weekend. The lads that came over to chat up the girls barely spoke English. They were effectively trapped in North Wales for the rest of their lives. It must be incredibly limiting in terms of opportunities, but I can only assume that's what their parents want - i.e. children that never spread their wings and move further afield.

A bit of context is needed for the assertion that "the syllabus has changed to reduce English language and literature to one subject" too.

It is a misleading oversimplification to say either that English language and literature were two GCSEs, or that they are now one GCSE.

In England there are separate English Language and English Literature GCSEs. More than a quarter of pupils who are entered for the language paper don't take literature (620420 literature entries in 2026, versus 844455 for language), so it would be accurate to say that pupils in England either study English Language and Literature for two GCSEs or, in a significant proportion of cases, study only language with no exposure to literature. For many pupils in England, literature isn't on their timetable at all.

The new arrangement in Wales is for English to be taught as a single syllabus including elements of both language and literature. This is available as either a double award (study both subjects and get two GCSEs) or a single award (one GCSE, including elements of both language and literature).

This could be done well or done badly, but it's not a 50% reduction in English!