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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu feeling uneasy about men taking little girls to the toilet in the womens toilet?

514 replies

Fasdmama · Yesterday 10:57

I've seen this a few times and I dont know what is the right thing to do.
So the other week we were at the cinema. I took my daughter to the toilet and as I was waiting for her a man came out of a cubicle with a little girl and went to wash her hands.
It got me thinking.
I feel uncomfortable a man in the womens toilet. I understand how you'd potentially feel uncomfortable taking a daughter into the mens toilets.
And the only other option in this situation was the disabled toilet but morally thats wrong.

I dont know what I feel is right in this situation so wanted to know other people's opinions.
So yabu: its right for a man to take girl into female toilets
Yanbu: he should take her somewhere else...but where?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:59

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 20:52

Yeah imagine how vulnerable and self-conscious a girl would feel being made to use the men's toilets.

I used male changing rooms constantly as a child having a mother who cannot swim so my dad had to bring us . I didn’t give a shit at that age . Most kids don’t . Look up child development. A teenage girl is far more likely to be uncomfortable than a small child

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 20:59

BananaPeels · Yesterday 20:38

It isn’t about what is going to happen in either loos - it is about dignity.

I once had a super heavy period and I was basically haemorrhaging. I had to deal with myself and then get to the sink to clean up.

on another occasion I was at pub and a whole glass of red wine got knocked down my front I literally had to strip down to my underwear in the loos and try to wash out my clothes and hold them under the dryer.

there have been other occasions where I’ve had to change in the loos between work and a night out.

sorry I don’t really want a man walking in during those times, no matter how noble anyone think he’s being.

Edited

I can understand that for both of those instances, and I think most men would be equally uncomfortable to walk in on you in those circumstances. I don't think men taking their daughters to the toilet are striving to be noble. They just want their kid to get to a toilet that they're comfortable with before they piss themselves. But with regards to you standing for the best part undressed drying your clothes , that isn't the primary purpose of a public toilet and possibly you made other women using the toilets uncomfortable.

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:54

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 20:43

You've shown two huge misunderstandings of SEN children in two successive comments. Neurodivergent children don't necessarily need accessible toilets, and they can't just "get over themselves."

You literally just said it was nothing to do with Sen . Regardless of any Sen an adult man should not be in the female toilets and it’s up for you to sort that out yourself . It’s not an excuse . Sorry but it’s not.

PhaedraTwo · Yesterday 20:53

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 20:47

Yes I agree!! You will find many new places are like this. The gaps are disappearing in toilet design which is what my campaign is about! It’s why I keep going on about toilets! I really wish I didn’t have to.

When it’s been ambiguous who is allowed in the washroom, the first thing that happens design-wise is that the doors and partitions become floor to ceiling in privacy.

Brace yourself for full on toilet safety nerdiness:

The Building Safety Regulator which were part of the Health and Safety Executive have written to me and said that the only designs that are allowed to have door gaps are single sex designs in a single sex environment.

In Approved Document T (2024) is doesn’t show them on the cross sectional diagrams for types C and D as they said they wanted the document to be as succinct as possible. However I have analysed the consultation and responses leading up to ADT, and there was no mention of why door gaps were advantageous (despite the health and safety advantages being listed in BS6465). In particular for the millions of people with heart conditions, risk of stroke, endometriosis, neurological conditions such as epilepsy, and diabetes….
The government did commission a private company to look at designs for people with long term health conditions. This commission didn’t look at any of the conditions I listed above either, except stroke in terms of a handrail. Instead they recommended enclosing certain designs for people with long term health conditions. I investigated the evidence they had for this. The literature source was wrong on multiple levels - it was an opinion article by two Americans (this is relevant as their designs are different to British designs) who weren’t looking at long term health conditions. The relevant sentence was: ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and
restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls’.
This is the typical design known as ‘inclusive’ toilet design. It’s unregulated, and least bad for healthy men.

As far as I am aware, no one looked at the affect of enclosing toilet design on women either. I can find no evidence of this happening.

Again, I can give you links to the above evidence if you really wanted. I am aware this is very niche, but by focusing on the vital importance of door gaps and investigating why the designs have changed, it has unearthed a lot of other stuff too!

What I am campaigning for is for the advantages of door gaps to be listed in ADT, ADM (in the section about separate sex toilet-washrooms for disabilities and conditions such as epilepsy and diabetes).

My completely unscientific observation is that women really dislike the set up with gaps. I know in my previous office, which had the gap formation, the toilets got lots of complaints about the the lack of privacy. They were awful.

As far as I am aware, no one looked at the affect of enclosing toilet design on women either. I can find no evidence of this happening.

If you'd asked the women on level 5 of my old office block you'd have got 100% approval for getting rid of doors with gaps.

Wynter25 · Yesterday 20:52

Yabu

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 20:52

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:42

As a teenage girl I was so self conscious about changing sanitary products . I would have freaked if I heard a man in there . I couldn’t give a toss now. I think some people just forget how vulnerable and self conscious teenage girls can be.

Yeah imagine how vulnerable and self-conscious a girl would feel being made to use the men's toilets.

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 20:47

PhaedraTwo · Yesterday 19:50

In a traditional single sex washroom (basins plus hand-dryers) there will be airflow above and below the partitions and doors from the toilet cubicle into the washroom,

Not always the case. None of the single sex lavatories in my new office building have gaps above or below. The doors on the cubicles are floor to ceiling opening out to the single sex hand washing area. Many places are like this.

Yes I agree!! You will find many new places are like this. The gaps are disappearing in toilet design which is what my campaign is about! It’s why I keep going on about toilets! I really wish I didn’t have to.

When it’s been ambiguous who is allowed in the washroom, the first thing that happens design-wise is that the doors and partitions become floor to ceiling in privacy.

Brace yourself for full on toilet safety nerdiness:

The Building Safety Regulator which were part of the Health and Safety Executive have written to me and said that the only designs that are allowed to have door gaps are single sex designs in a single sex environment.

In Approved Document T (2024) is doesn’t show them on the cross sectional diagrams for types C and D as they said they wanted the document to be as succinct as possible. However I have analysed the consultation and responses leading up to ADT, and there was no mention of why door gaps were advantageous (despite the health and safety advantages being listed in BS6465). In particular for the millions of people with heart conditions, risk of stroke, endometriosis, neurological conditions such as epilepsy, and diabetes….
The government did commission a private company to look at designs for people with long term health conditions. This commission didn’t look at any of the conditions I listed above either, except stroke in terms of a handrail. Instead they recommended enclosing certain designs for people with long term health conditions. I investigated the evidence they had for this. The literature source was wrong on multiple levels - it was an opinion article by two Americans (this is relevant as their designs are different to British designs) who weren’t looking at long term health conditions. The relevant sentence was: ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and
restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls’.
This is the typical design known as ‘inclusive’ toilet design. It’s unregulated, and least bad for healthy men.

As far as I am aware, no one looked at the affect of enclosing toilet design on women either. I can find no evidence of this happening.

Again, I can give you links to the above evidence if you really wanted. I am aware this is very niche, but by focusing on the vital importance of door gaps and investigating why the designs have changed, it has unearthed a lot of other stuff too!

What I am campaigning for is for the advantages of door gaps to be listed in ADT, ADM (in the section about separate sex toilet-washrooms for disabilities and conditions such as epilepsy and diabetes).

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 20:43

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:38

My six year old boy has occasionally gone to the men’s on his own in an open door toilet where I could see what was going on . He’s well able to go to the toilet on his own , most 6 year olds are because they go to the toilet on their own in school . I’d be more wary of a 6 year old boy going to the toilet on their own in the men’s than a 6 year old girl going in the men’s with with a man literally there supervising them. Or a 6 year old girl going to the women’s on their own which is basically zero risk. if they have a trantrum about it they just need to get over themselves and learn to understand that an adult man can’t be in the women’s toilets . You don’t always get your way in life .

You've shown two huge misunderstandings of SEN children in two successive comments. Neurodivergent children don't necessarily need accessible toilets, and they can't just "get over themselves."

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:42

BananaPeels · Yesterday 20:38

It isn’t about what is going to happen in either loos - it is about dignity.

I once had a super heavy period and I was basically haemorrhaging. I had to deal with myself and then get to the sink to clean up.

on another occasion I was at pub and a whole glass of red wine got knocked down my front I literally had to strip down to my underwear in the loos and try to wash out my clothes and hold them under the dryer.

there have been other occasions where I’ve had to change in the loos between work and a night out.

sorry I don’t really want a man walking in during those times, no matter how noble anyone think he’s being.

Edited

As a teenage girl I was so self conscious about changing sanitary products . I would have freaked if I heard a man in there . I couldn’t give a toss now. I think some people just forget how vulnerable and self conscious teenage girls can be.

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:38

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 20:31

Needing me didn't mean she needed an accessible toilet 🤣

My six year old boy has occasionally gone to the men’s on his own in an open door toilet where I could see what was going on . He’s well able to go to the toilet on his own , most 6 year olds are because they go to the toilet on their own in school . I’d be more wary of a 6 year old boy going to the toilet on their own in the men’s than a 6 year old girl going in the men’s with with a man literally there supervising them. Or a 6 year old girl going to the women’s on their own which is basically zero risk. if they have a trantrum about it they just need to get over themselves and learn to understand that an adult man can’t be in the women’s toilets . You don’t always get your way in life .

BananaPeels · Yesterday 20:38

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 20:23

What age exactly? My daughter did when she was younger and still does. She still needs to be taken and assisted in the toilet at 16 due to her disability. Disabled toilets aren't always available. It's not the case now she's older but when she was younger her dad frequently had to take her to the toilet. Why do people keep asking what we think goes on in men's toilets as if the only reason we don't feel a female child should have to use the men's toilets is because they'd be at some risk. You're the one getting all bent out of shape about some poor dad just trying to take his kids to the toilet. What do you think is going to happen in that scenario?

It isn’t about what is going to happen in either loos - it is about dignity.

I once had a super heavy period and I was basically haemorrhaging. I had to deal with myself and then get to the sink to clean up.

on another occasion I was at pub and a whole glass of red wine got knocked down my front I literally had to strip down to my underwear in the loos and try to wash out my clothes and hold them under the dryer.

there have been other occasions where I’ve had to change in the loos between work and a night out.

sorry I don’t really want a man walking in during those times, no matter how noble anyone think he’s being.

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 20:31

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:15

Extra needs like this should use the disabled toilet .

Needing me didn't mean she needed an accessible toilet 🤣

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 20:29

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:15

Extra needs like this should use the disabled toilet .

There aren't always disabled toilets, believe me I know!

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 20:23

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 19:21

This is ridiculous children of that age do not care . It’s the adults who care not preschool kids . They don’t give a shit about where they go for a pee as long as an adult is with them . What are you shielding them from exactly ? What the hell do you think goes on in men’s toilets

What age exactly? My daughter did when she was younger and still does. She still needs to be taken and assisted in the toilet at 16 due to her disability. Disabled toilets aren't always available. It's not the case now she's older but when she was younger her dad frequently had to take her to the toilet. Why do people keep asking what we think goes on in men's toilets as if the only reason we don't feel a female child should have to use the men's toilets is because they'd be at some risk. You're the one getting all bent out of shape about some poor dad just trying to take his kids to the toilet. What do you think is going to happen in that scenario?

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 20:15

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 19:38

I don't think that's necessarily true for every child, and it's not just preschool kids who need help in the bathroom either. My middle DC is now 6 but I'm certain she would have had a meltdown if her dad had tried to take her in a men's bathroom, probably from about 3.5 - 4. Thankfully (every cloud!) it never came up as I was almost always with her due to her needs.

Extra needs like this should use the disabled toilet .

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 20:12

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 20:06

  1. it‘s not allowed in building regulations.
  2. where is has been tried anyway (making a single sex design mixed sex by replacing a pictogram on the outer washroom door) women and girls are subject to voyeurism and harassment.

No one is comfortable having door gaps in a mixed sex environment.

You will see in ‘gender-neutral’ ‘inclusive’ designs the cubicles are private within a mixed sex washroom. This is also against regulations, particularly clear in England under ADT (toilets) and ADM (accessibility).

Schools have been the ‘canaries in the coal mine’ of mixed sex design as they were exempt from some legislation. Loads of wacky designs have been trialled, with problems particularly affecting girls and the medically vulnerable.

I didn't know that, so thank you. I think (in fact, I'm about 90% sure) I've been in places that are flouting this rule. I suppose the plans need to move with the times - if we can design shuttles that go to the moon I'm sure our best engineers can come up with fully enclosed toilets that are properly ventilated!

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 20:06

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 19:42

Thanks for replying! Why can't you have a mixed sex bathroom with door gaps (albeit too small for a person to get through), and a shared hand washing/sink area (so there's none of the contamination from the flush)?

  1. it‘s not allowed in building regulations.
  2. where is has been tried anyway (making a single sex design mixed sex by replacing a pictogram on the outer washroom door) women and girls are subject to voyeurism and harassment.

No one is comfortable having door gaps in a mixed sex environment.

You will see in ‘gender-neutral’ ‘inclusive’ designs the cubicles are private within a mixed sex washroom. This is also against regulations, particularly clear in England under ADT (toilets) and ADM (accessibility).

Schools have been the ‘canaries in the coal mine’ of mixed sex design as they were exempt from some legislation. Loads of wacky designs have been trialled, with problems particularly affecting girls and the medically vulnerable.

TigerDroveAgain · Yesterday 19:52

Why not offer to watch her? I’ve done that before

PhaedraTwo · Yesterday 19:50

In a traditional single sex washroom (basins plus hand-dryers) there will be airflow above and below the partitions and doors from the toilet cubicle into the washroom,

Not always the case. None of the single sex lavatories in my new office building have gaps above or below. The doors on the cubicles are floor to ceiling opening out to the single sex hand washing area. Many places are like this.

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 19:42

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 19:39

I think I have only ever been in one public toilet block that has had an attendant. Everywhere else, the strangers you are in the room with act as attendants to supervise if things went wrong.

Can you see my diagram I have posted on here previously? Ventilation is a massive problem in toilets. In a traditional single sex washroom (basins plus hand-dryers) there will be airflow above and below the partitions and doors from the toilet cubicle into the washroom, which typically has a glazed window open to provide natural ventilation. Remember COVID, and how opening doors and windows was encouraged? With mixed sex designs, they are enclosed rooms which often rely mechanical ventilation. They need to lead off public spaces which may not be next to an outside wall. It is accepted mechanical ventilation is less adequate than natural ventilation.

In terms on cleaning, if you have door gaps and partitions gaps you can get a mop and bleach and slosh down walls and doors that can have secretions and excretions on them. The cubicle walls and floor can all be thoroughly cleaned, even hosed! With a mixed sex design the doors and partitions go down to the floor and there’s build up. Any liquid on the bottom of the door may make the door swell. There are physical limitations as to how you can clean.

A lot of my original research was looking at how secondary school designs were changing. This is a good example of the typical problems that happen:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

Also this is a quote from a pupil using a unisex toilet room: ‘The gender-neutral bathrooms are both horrible and amazing. I am so glad we have them, but they are disgusting, mostly because of the way students treat them. The issue mainly comes from how small and how few they are, and it’s not uncommon that the four small bathrooms [one on each floor] are filled with sex, drugs or vaping. We need to address these problems, or the gender-neutral bathrooms will continue to be the most disgusting in the school….I consider everything in the third floor bathroom a biohazard. Almost every time I make the mistake of going in, I leave trying to purge my mind of the horrors I just witnessed. Whether it is people having sex, poop smeared on the walls, or the toilet being clogged with an entire roll of toilet paper, horrible things have happened in that bathroom.’

It’s the privacy that’s the problem. Teachers tried to increase cctv, restrict access to certain times, use teachers to monitor children going in and out etc. The child’s solution was to have more ‘gender-neutral’ toilets so the dirt and sex could be spread out more and hopefully more chance of finding a nice one.

Thanks for replying! Why can't you have a mixed sex bathroom with door gaps (albeit too small for a person to get through), and a shared hand washing/sink area (so there's none of the contamination from the flush)?

Keeptoiletssafe · Yesterday 19:39

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 18:59

I don't think I'm following all this - why would a mixed gender design mean that ventilation wouldn't work the same, or cleaning, or supervision? There isn't any supervision in most public bathrooms anyway?

I think I have only ever been in one public toilet block that has had an attendant. Everywhere else, the strangers you are in the room with act as attendants to supervise if things went wrong.

Can you see my diagram I have posted on here previously? Ventilation is a massive problem in toilets. In a traditional single sex washroom (basins plus hand-dryers) there will be airflow above and below the partitions and doors from the toilet cubicle into the washroom, which typically has a glazed window open to provide natural ventilation. Remember COVID, and how opening doors and windows was encouraged? With mixed sex designs, they are enclosed rooms which often rely mechanical ventilation. They need to lead off public spaces which may not be next to an outside wall. It is accepted mechanical ventilation is less adequate than natural ventilation.

In terms on cleaning, if you have door gaps and partitions gaps you can get a mop and bleach and slosh down walls and doors that can have secretions and excretions on them. The cubicle walls and floor can all be thoroughly cleaned, even hosed! With a mixed sex design the doors and partitions go down to the floor and there’s build up. Any liquid on the bottom of the door may make the door swell. There are physical limitations as to how you can clean.

A lot of my original research was looking at how secondary school designs were changing. This is a good example of the typical problems that happen:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

Also this is a quote from a pupil using a unisex toilet room: ‘The gender-neutral bathrooms are both horrible and amazing. I am so glad we have them, but they are disgusting, mostly because of the way students treat them. The issue mainly comes from how small and how few they are, and it’s not uncommon that the four small bathrooms [one on each floor] are filled with sex, drugs or vaping. We need to address these problems, or the gender-neutral bathrooms will continue to be the most disgusting in the school….I consider everything in the third floor bathroom a biohazard. Almost every time I make the mistake of going in, I leave trying to purge my mind of the horrors I just witnessed. Whether it is people having sex, poop smeared on the walls, or the toilet being clogged with an entire roll of toilet paper, horrible things have happened in that bathroom.’

It’s the privacy that’s the problem. Teachers tried to increase cctv, restrict access to certain times, use teachers to monitor children going in and out etc. The child’s solution was to have more ‘gender-neutral’ toilets so the dirt and sex could be spread out more and hopefully more chance of finding a nice one.

'Drug dealing, drinking and dirt' The problems with school toilets in Wales

Pupils are taking drugs and drinking in "dangerous unhygienic" completely enclosed toilet cubicles, says a report by campaign group Merched Cymru

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 19:38

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 19:21

This is ridiculous children of that age do not care . It’s the adults who care not preschool kids . They don’t give a shit about where they go for a pee as long as an adult is with them . What are you shielding them from exactly ? What the hell do you think goes on in men’s toilets

I don't think that's necessarily true for every child, and it's not just preschool kids who need help in the bathroom either. My middle DC is now 6 but I'm certain she would have had a meltdown if her dad had tried to take her in a men's bathroom, probably from about 3.5 - 4. Thankfully (every cloud!) it never came up as I was almost always with her due to her needs.

Badgerstmary · Yesterday 19:34

I definitely think a parent should only go into the toilet of the sex that they are & fortunately have never encountered a man in the ladies. I also think it would be horrifying for a young girl of 9 upwards on her period needing to change sanitary pads/tampons knowing that there was a man in the next cubicle & that he could potentially look over.

Tralalalala88 · Yesterday 19:21

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 19:15

I entirely agree, there isn't a work around that works for all. So the best we can do is be respectful and accept someone else's actions won't always align with what we feel is right or how we would like things to be done.

This is ridiculous children of that age do not care . It’s the adults who care not preschool kids . They don’t give a shit about where they go for a pee as long as an adult is with them . What are you shielding them from exactly ? What the hell do you think goes on in men’s toilets

Anarchy99 · Yesterday 19:19

Duckduckgander · Yesterday 19:15

I entirely agree, there isn't a work around that works for all. So the best we can do is be respectful and accept someone else's actions won't always align with what we feel is right or how we would like things to be done.

So those with trauma or who have religious reasons do what? Stand outside until the man has finished?

It’s always the women that have to be respectful and accepting.

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