To think in life being a nice, good person rarely counts for much?

Yes! I totally agree. “Nice” is such a bland, limp descriptor. To me, it conjures up the image of a chronic people-pleaser who agrees with everyone and avoids any kind of confrontation, even when they’re secretly seething with resentment. There’s something deeply inauthentic about that.

I’d far rather be described as kind, ethical and trustworthy rather than simply “nice.” Kindness has substance; “nice” often feels like nothing more than being agreeable. 🤮

I have concluded (weirdly just this morning) that there are three basic types of people: arseholes, cowards and kind people.

The arseholes lie, cheat, manipulate and shit on everyone.

The cowards enable the arseholes. They do this to protect themselves and in so doing shit on the kind people.

The kind people are just treated like the shit they have been covered in.

I have been covered in so much shit that I am very tempted to jump into the arsehole category but the problem is it’s just not in my DNA. I’m a people pleaser, I am traditional and respectful. I can try but I would be very convincing.

I think it counts massively and reflects internal ethos. Combine with a good skill set, you’ve got someone who is both personable and able. The perfect mix.

Of course there are non personable people who get on in life but they lose in other ways, damaged family or friend relationships and being disliked in the workspace.

Agreed, @marbIehalls -- it's also worth pointing out that 'nice' is not the same as 'good'. I doubt I'd be described as particularly 'nice', but I'm trustworthy, honest, fair-minded, committed, will keep confidences and speak up if I see wrongdoing or someone being mistreated. It's possible to do your best to be 'good' while not being perceived as 'nice'. 'Nice' is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm not that interested in that. It's not in my criteria for friends, either. Are you interesting? is my first criterion when I meet someone.

So how come you say everyone loves her @Skyflier ?

It counts for a lot if it means something to the individual. Most people who are genuinely good people aren't like that to advance themselves.

We all have different moral compasses and values. It matters to me that I'm fair, decent, don't use people for my own ends, pay my way, am there for the people that matter to me. I don't know whether that makes me a good person or not and equally that doesn't matter to me. What matters is being able to look at myself in the mirror and like who I am. I agree that ambitious people are often more selfish and have a different set of values and ideals.

The first paragraph is you making fun of the idea that I've said you believe in a vengeful god. The next paragraph is you describing a vengeful god that you hope exists. Well, you probably think of it as a god of fairness, but "bad people get bad things" is the same thing.

That certainly would be fair, but even the concept of good and bad people is itself pretty hard to determine.

I think you're confusing being nice with being non-confrontational and a pushover.

Being non-confrontational and a pushover/bending to the will of other people, is absolutely a negative in life. It's independent from being kind though. You can be a confrontational, strong character who is kind.

Or a pushover who bends to what other people want/doesn't stick up for themselves and is kind. The more confrontational person will always do better in life, in my opinion.

Not many people these days say they believe in God, but many say they believe in karma - but what they mean by karma in this context is a god. A force that smites the unworthy; hardly a new concept. (Not what karma actually is, but it's what people usually mean when they use the term.)

I find this interesting, but I also find it interesting that they rarely speak of this vengeful god smiting murderers or rapists. It's usually cheaters and people who piss you off at work.

It counts for a lot in my circles.

You’ve got to have something else, though - you can’t just be nice and honest and reliable. You’ve got to be good fun, or interesting, or talented, or funny.

(Same probably goes for evil people, tbh. You’d be a pretty unsuccessful villain without a bit of charisma)

Then you hit middle-age and realise not only is that bullsht, actually the reverse is true. Most of the obnoxious, arrogant bullies have gone on to thrive. And it is always, always, f-ing always the nice people who seem to go under. Every time someone sweet and nice dies of cancer, or is cheated on by their partner, I think "hang on, be rational, it can't always be the nice people." Then it happens again...and again.*

I am middle aged. The kids that bullied me throughout school have certainly not gone on to "thrive". One is dead, one ended up in prison and one is in a dead end job and constantly moaning about how they're twice divorced and are constantly getting dumped (I looked them all up once on Facebook- it was glorious). So I dont agree that only bullies thrive - thats confirmation bias talking.

Also regarding cancer - Reggie Kray died of cancer, was he a "nice" person?

You think I'm looking for a 'vengeful god to strike people'.....are you smoking crack, pure mumsnet response there 😆

I would like to think Karma exists, wouldn't you? Good people get good things, bad people get bad things, fair no?

I'm a 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me' person. I'm pretty ruthless at walking away from people who mess me around, especially more than once. It's been a very protective policy.

I don't know how typical children's sports are of life in general. I think that in ordinary adult life, someone who is honest, considerate and respectful of other people tends to be well liked and trusted, though possibly not praised and emulated in the way a more flamboyant, less reliable person might be.

Everyone is scared of bullies, especially HR and directors. Nothing ever comes of grievances. Life is a competition and not remotely fair. Just fight to try and avoid a victim mindset, is my approach

not in a fake kind of way, I genuinely love chatting to people etc.For a while I thought it was kind of like a inner happiness/contentment I had whilst they were deeply unhappy people. I thought Karma would come for them but its clearly not the case.

I'm not sure a genuinely "nice" person or one with inner happiness and contentment would be watching others hoping for a vengeful god (which is what people mean by karma in this context, but not at all what the concept actually is) to strike them.

Nobody is saying you have to be a saint, or that your colleague can’t genuinely be unpleasant. The problem is the rather convenient leap from “she’s a bitch and I’m nice” to “therefore people reward nasty behaviour and I’m overlooked because I’m too good.” 😂 which frankly, just doesnt wash I'm afraid.

I dont know of a single person who goes into work saying "I cant wait to talk to Sandra today, she's a total nasty bully who causes arguments constantly and slags me off- but I really hope I can sit with her at lunch!"

If she really does spend her time talking about people, stirring arguments and causing divisions, then presumably other adults are perfectly capable of noticing that for themselves. If they still like her, perhaps there are qualities they enjoy that you’re deliberately choosing not to acknowledge.

And “I try to be nice, but sometimes it’s impossible” is hardly a ringing endorsement of your argument. You started off saying you always try to be nice and now you are saying it's impossible to be nice at times. So, which is it?

None of us are "nice" all the time because we are flawed human beings. But kindness isn’t about being endlessly pleasant or never getting irritated -it’s about how you treat people when you’re annoyed, when you disagree, and when there’s nothing to gain from being decent.

I just find it fascinating how quickly these conversations become “I’m the nice one and she’s the bitch, so why does everyone like her?” Perhaps before concluding that the entire team has inexplicably failed to recognise your superior niceness, it’s worth considering that other people may not see the situation quite as you do.

Unfortunately a lot of the time the traits that come with being nice also come with the traits of being easily walked all over. I don't disagree with you at all OP.

The people who shout the loudest, make the biggest fuss or the ones with connections regardless of skill are usually the ones picked for stuff.

OttersOnAPlane: 'Being a decent human being and being a pushover aren't the same thing.'

I was just about to post and say roughly the same thing. I was having a bible lesson on Wednesday and we were discussing this. We were talking about although it's good to be nice, that doesn't mean you are a pushover!
Unfortunately there are people out there that will zone in on lack of confidence and use and abuse you. But confidence and kindness should be two seperate things. If you put yoursel first sometimes it doesn't mean you are being selfish or unkind, it's just putting up a boundry.
Besides, I prefer to do the right thing because I think I can so I should, and so I can face myself in bed at night knowing I tried my best.

Just to clarify - the reason I mentioned her family dying in the Holocaust was because I think it had made her very brave. She knew how appalling humans can be to each other and that made her both very moral and very much someone you didn't mess with.

I agree, unfortunately. I comes down to evolutionary biology and which traits favour survival over others, and 'winning' over other people. Humans are animals and they are programmed to compete for survival, often at the expense of weaker, gentler people. Taken to its logical conclusion this can result in bullying.

I recognise this, but it doesn't have to mean you need to abandon morals and be nasty. It just means that, as well as being good, kind, loyal, honest and helpful to other people, you need to be a strong personality and stick up for yourself too.

I've often found in my life that 'good' people aren't always 'nice' people. I had a boss whose family had been killed in the Holocaust and she was one of the most morally upright people I've ever met. But she wasn't always 'nice', in the sense that she didn't pander to people, didn't tell them what they wanted to hear and would even upset some people if she thought they were doing the wrong thing. She could some over as harsh and brusque, but if you were in a corner, she'd always do her best to help you. So being nice and being good aren't always the same thing.

I'm not quite that strong! But I've taught myself to be 'good' and do the right thing by others but at the same time, make sure I'm not taken advantage of. I can recognise a bully at 100 paces and they don't get far with me. You have to look after yourself before you can help anyone else, so don't be afraid to have a healthy sense of self-respect.

Absolutely agree, dawned on me in the last couple of years.
I increasingly felt like I was the only good person with good values etc surrounded by aggressive, selfish takers.
I would happily let people out at junctions with a big smile, hold doors open for people, basically be really friendly to everyone, not in a fake kind of way, I genuinely love chatting to people etc.

For a while I thought it was kind of like a inner happiness/contentment I had whilst they were deeply unhappy people. I thought Karma would come for them but its clearly not the case.

I've completely pulled back, I actively think before conversing with people whereas before I would instantly go into happy chatty response mode, now I stop and think can I be bothered to make your day feel better when it's very likely you are going to actively make mine worse.

I feel like I'm being 'off' with people now because I'm not as nice but I've had it with being nice in a world of people who don't care. It's shit but it's rare I come across other kind/nice/friendly people.

Exactly. A football team has no metric for 'nice'. It's not going to want violent or uncontrolled players who foul and start fights and get red cards, obviously, but other than that, it wants the best players. Likewise, I don't care whether my ortho consultant buys the Big issue and is nice to his staff -- I care whether he can cure me.

Tbh, OP, I tend to think that 'nice' is used in these kinds of plaintive posts as a code for 'people-pleasing wet lettuce who is incapable of being assertive or boundaried and is possibly not very good at their job'. I'm trustworthy and honest, and a good friend and colleague -- but I'm also assertive, forthright, and won't let someone take credit for my work or push me around. 'Nice' doesn't have to mean 'mimsy'.

It’s true but then the alternative is that the bully types don’t really have real friends- they’ve people who agree with them. The pushy people in life, those that jump queues, shout loudest and declare they don’t give two shits, call people people pleasers etc etc- they’ll never have people say ‘I’m glad I knew them ’.

100% agree. It's definitely my experience of myself and family. Unfortunately, people take advantage of "nice/good" people as they're seen to be weak. Modern life is set up for the loud, extraverted, selfish, "takers". Bullying is just one aspect, there are lots of other aspects of how the not-so-nice and not-so-good people get on in life far better.