To think in life being a nice, good person rarely counts for much?

Sorry but she is. She talks about everyone, stirs arguments and causes divisions in our team. I didn’t say I was a saint - just try and be nice (but sometimes it’s impossible)

It only counts internally: it means that you are living by the values that are important to you. You don't act 'nice' just to have 'nice' things happen to you, it's not transactional like that. You are 'nice' or whatever because it's the right thing to do, it's the right way to live your life. You can't control what happens externally - like getting picked for the team or given a promotion. But you can have control over living up to your own values. That's integrity.

Not that nice if you're calling a colleague a bitch....

This is a bit weird. Of course kids will get chosen for a team if they're good at the sport. What else are you supposed to be selecting for?

And of course there should be consequences if they can't be respectful to teammates or attend practices. They'll be detrimental to the team if they don't show up or hurt other kids. Are you seeing children frequently bashing other children and not turning up for practices but there being no consequences? I think that's unusual.

There is a persistent idea that the "popular" kids are horrible, but the truth is that actually popular people are usually pretty pleasant... that's why they're popular! I was in the sad, nerdy group at school and actually the popular crowd didn't outnumber us, and we had plenty of hierarchy, infighting, politics and nastiness among ourselves as well. Nothing I'd call bullying, but we certainly weren't morally superior just because we weren't very fashionable. Turned out most of us were ND, and tbh we were not always easy to get along with. I can see why we didn't have mass appeal.

It is one of the horrible realisations we all have to go through. When I was young, I developed this idiotic delusion (fostered by mawkish films and TV shows) that good people win through in the end and bad people get their just deserts. Then you hit middle-age and realise not only is that bullsh*t, actually the reverse is true. Most of the obnoxious, arrogant bullies have gone on to thrive. And it is always, always, f-ing always the nice people who seem to go under. Every time someone sweet and nice dies of cancer, or is cheated on by their partner, I think "hang on, be rational, it can't always be the nice people." Then it happens again...and again.

Even in the last few years, there's been a shift and the "popular, cool, talented bullies" have got called out for their behaviour (allegedly ranging from being a mean bully to serious crimes). Weinstein, Tara from that Models show, Ellen DeGeneres, Brand, Walliams, various footballers (sorry for spellings).
Whether or not you believe in an afterlife/rebirth, you can see that things come around.
It might not be as obvious in the office, but there have been cases of the mean girls/sleazes getting karma.
And the nice kids generally do end up with nice friends they can trust.

It counts for your own integrity.

Even if nobody sees you acting badly - hanging dogshit bags in trees is a good example - you still know what you did and have to look yourself in the mirror. What would you see to be proud of?

I disagree, and think the examples you've picked are bad.
Being good at sports or having specific skills at work doesn't mean you're liked or appreciated. You're just being used for the purpose of building a winning team. You could as well be a pet or a screwdriver, you'd get the same reward.
Being a bully at school might make you "popular" but it's out of fear rather than being liked, and what's admired by teens is barely tolerated by young adults. They'll have to change or get booted out.

Being the scene, most adults I've met who are displaying bullying or similar behaviours are lonely and miserable, haven't really built any strong friendships, and know they are being talked about behind their back. But yeah, they might be relatively successful at work!

You shouldn't teach your children values to be successful in sports and work, but to build meaningful relationships that will support them in life.

I came across horrible little shits when I was a child, and there were horrible little shits when my kids were at school. They all disappeared eventually in my experience.

You’ll meet people like this throughout life, just be yourself.

No one gives a shit how “nice “ you are when trying out for a sports team do they ? I mean no premier league footballer got on to the team for being “nice “ and “kind”. That’s life

It shows that the coach is the problem. I’d say in my DS’s football the team players with the best attitudes are the best players, they never give less than 100% and the two best (one of them is very good) are really good at bringing the others up.

Yanbu x

You can be a nice, good person and be succesful at life - you just also have to be tough, set boundaries, learn to say no etc. Being nice and being a doormat are not the same thing.

There's always a tension in human societies between the tough and unscrupulous vs the civilised. Throughout history bullies and tyrants have often got more than other people. We are lucky that we now live in a society that values fairness and upholds the rule of law. Often, upholding these values also requires a sort of toughness though and the pendulum is always swinging between strong and weak people, or those who are principled and unprincipled.

The best way to live is to know what values you believe in and uphold them as strongly as you can. If you feel the football team doesn't share your values, leave and find another one (or start your own). That's a great way to teach your child what matters to you.

I do think you're right that niceness isn't always a successful life strategy, but that's because often niceness can just be about control or the desire to be liked. For me being 'nice' is way down my list of important values. I believe in community and selflessness, but more important than those are fairness, justice, integrity, honesty etc.

‘ no one wants to get on the wrong side of bullies’ is horrendously true and bullies really do accrue cowardly followers and then there is a gang. It’s incredible to see the escalating echo chambers led by bullies.
is virtue its own reward? It kind of better be as it’s hard to see societal reward for it.

I’m really curious by whose standard are you always doing the right thing? There is no really objective standard for that and it is often the case that the right thing for one person has consequences that are felt by other people.

So, you are the epitome of "nice and kind" yet you are calling your co worker a "bitch", are jealous of her, and cannot understand why people arent flocking to be your friend?

😆

You are writing a story about the meaning of life, which is what we all do. But yours is a slightly warped and miserable one. It also places you as a bit of a victim, unable to affect your own circumstances.

It sounds like you thought being "good" would be rewarded - and in fact life is much more random than that. Some good people have terrible lives and some bad people have great lives.

But - the story I tell myself is that I can change me, and become more resilient, build my skills, improve my friendships, create good times and nice memories. So that's pretty much what has happened over my life. And I now hang out with basically good people living a value driven life, and try to do my bit to make the world a nicer place in tiny ways.

And that works for me. I stay away from bullies and manipulative people if I can. I hope you find a way to find your tribe and be a bit happier, you sound quite sad at the moment.

And if this is really a post about why kids get picked for teams - that's probably no help at all, except please try and help your child be resilient and not develop their own narrative of "everyone's against me".

Yup I agree. I hope I’m a nice person and I always try and do the right thing and be kind to others and helpful. However I am easily forgotten. Whereas the woman I work with is a bitch but everyone loves her!

‘Nice’ is the most bland of descriptors. I’ve said it before, but ‘nice’ is the word you use when asked to describe someone you’ve barely even noticed.

’Nice’ is also used as a synonym for doormat. It’s someone who believes that putting themselves last is a virtue they’ll be rewarded for, but what it actually means is that they’ll be taken advantage of. Not that they won’t allow it, because they will. They’ll let it happen whilst impotently sitting and seething about it.

Being bold, going for what you want, and having boundaries aren’t generally perceived as being ‘nice’ traits, and particularly not when it comes to women. They’re widely considered to be admirable traits in men. Not being ‘nice’ isn’t the same thing as being unpleasant though, and people that are unpleasant and go through life with zero social smarts or ability to read their audience don’t and won’t succeed.

Personally, I don’t care about whether I’m ‘nice’ or not. I care about whether I like me, and if I like my life and the people in it. If someone doesn’t think I’m nice because I won’t dance to their tune, then good.

I see what you mean, OP but I think it's important to be able to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and know that you might be flawed but you are a good person.

I think it's possible to be nice and honest but also have boundaries.

Small example, but I was at the market the other day and picked out some make up in my shade. A woman near me saw it was in my hand and said she wanted the same shade but couldn't find another one. I gave her mine because it was the last one, she took it and paid for it but didn't say thank you. I shrugged it off.

A few minutes later, I picked out something else and she pipes up again that she wanted that colour and looks me in the eyes. This time I just looked at her and wanted to say 'you should have said thank you the first time.' She was surprised when I just ignored her and paid for it.