School want to trial a part time timetable after just 2 weeks at the school - WWYD?

‘Lots of refusing lessons, swearing at staff, walking out of class and generally refusing instructions’

What else do you suggest they do? It sounds like they’ve got someone to support him and his just taking them for a ride anyway. So he either doesn’t do lessons and has a whole team chasing him round the building or doesn’t do lessons at home, where you can direct him to some thing he enjoys that is educational and constructive.

Part time rarely works. In our case it was the catalyst to our DD being out of school with no education from year 9-11. There are two issues, one it doesn’t address their unmet needs and doesn’t get support in place to help them manage in school. They do then get into a routine that they don’t have to be in school all day and when they are overwhelmed rely on going home as first resort - this is both from school side and child’s.

The other issue is every lesson they miss gets them further and further behind, at the end of the part time timetable even if enthusiastic and wanting to be in all day they go back into lessons they have been absent for for weeks, get further behind and then can’t cope.

part time morning bf s only mean you are missing different lessons every afternoon, putting the child in a confusing position where they could attend adhoc lessons without attending the lessons in between meaning even the lessons they do attend don’t make sense.

An EHCP is a legal document and the school have to follow it and are obliged to make reasonsble adjustments
They get extra funding via the EHCP.

We accepted a part-time timetable for ds2 in year 6 (he would have been permanently excluded otherwise) whilst actively seeking a longer term alternative placement.

It is perhaps an unfair comparison because we and school knew that he would have to move schools at the end of the year so was not worth putting in a huge anount of effort to make sure this placement worked. So it was definitely a stop-gap rather than a tool to get him back to full-time hours. Having said that because school stopped trying so much e.g. kept him with the TA he trusted rather than swopping about with different TA's he did settle a bit e.g. he stopped kicking and running away every morning. In ds2's case we also stopped giving him medication which was meant to reduce anxiety but in reality made him worse.

I think whether you accept the reduced hours is down to a number of factors

What does your ds want to do? Is he desperate to be in mainstream even if he finds it difficult or would he prefer to be back in a specialist setting.

Does school have a clear plan for what additional support they can give him and how they can re-transition him back to full-time hours. E.g. What goals will he have to achieve in terms of behaviour or how long are they expecting him to be on part-time hours. If it is simply shorter hours with no additional support then I would be wary.

What are the alternatives if any. Are there any suitable specialist settings. I would do as much research as you can now as clearly the school is warning you they might not be able to meet needs long term.

ds1 was also permanently excluded from primary (this is a different ds to the one on reduced hours). It was a difficult choice but we decided the least worst option for him (and us) was for him to go to a specialist setting even with the downsides of reduced academic opportunities and very long journey time because we just could not go through the distress of more exclusions. This was several years ago, he is now and adult with a degree and working, but I think was the right choice for him. I would phrase it as at that time he needed a special education so that he could lead a mainstream life.

I think you should agree to the school's proposal.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5484488-ehcp-support-thread-no-6?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share @Giraffe888

This could be a good option, if everyone agrees and genuinely think it will help. It could help to preserve self-esteem IF they are saying that by remaining in school full time may result in suspensions. That said, suspensions without implementing support for the child’s needs could be on dodgy ground, but, if they don’t yet know what he needs because they haven’t had that chance to build relationships yet, this might be a good way to do it - as long as there is a clear plan to increase time and clear plan for when he is there. I have seen successes at reintegration from a reduced timetable, but equally, for some children (my own included), all the reduced timetable did was reinforce to my child that school was not a ‘safe place’ for them. My own child has ASD, ADHD, dyslexia, sensory stuff and has a demand avoidant profile. He really struggles moving into secondary and didn’t have all those diagnoses or obvious needs at transition into Y7 as coped well at primary. This will be a big and overwhelming change for your child coming from a PRU.

What do you think? Is it something you would like to try? You need to agree to it and it cannot be forced onto you. You can also change your mind if you start it and school wants to carry it on for longer than you’d like. What does your child think will help?

It’s also possible that a specialist placement may be the best (we finally got one in Y10) and I’m gutted it took so long to get the EHCP and a placement - around 2 years in total. My child might not have ended up missing 18 months of schooling through EBSNA and have better future prospects. He’s in an amazing school now (a converted AP classed as Specialist where he’s still studying GCSEs flexibly with additional interest-led provision and js for SEMH presenting (mainly internalisers) autistic children.
it might be that this builds evidence of need for a placement in specialist. It might be that the school can’t provide the support - this is not a good reason. It has to be of benefit for the child AND they need to provide suitable learning for times he is not in school.

ps sending him home to ‘calm down’ is an unlawful suspension.

At this stage I would be asking it the reduced timetable was alongside actual support for his adhd and ODD, not just a 1 to 1 he isnt engaging with (does the 1 to 1 have a clear purpose, is it academic support or emotional regulation)

By this i mean have cahms looked at medication options. Is there OT support in place that he could do at home in, are the APs like sports or animal that he could do in the afternoon as a transition activity.

I am a bit concerned that just hoping he gets used to it, settles then behaves in the afternoon isnt that realistic. Its a major transition that needs really support.

I do also think children with sen can indeed very quickly learn that the quickest way out of an uncomfortable environment that doesnt meet needs is to kick off. Yes meltdowns happen also, but schools can and do trainin children to escalate thier behaviour by the way they respond to it.

If he continues with this behaviour he wont last at that school and he will quickly start getting suspended. So you should agree to their plan.

You don’t have to agree to P/T and schools cannot enforce without parental consent but they can of course suspend which is where this may go? With an EHCP he will have funding especially with 1:1 so ask this is used for online tutoring etc what local authority are you? My go to would be look for a good alternative provision - there are more than people know and ask local authority fund this? Call emergency EHCP review if needed. But please explore options now - it all takes time! It may be best in interim to try the PT timetable and if still not helpful you have your evidence to move forward quickly.

Hi @Giraffe888 I don't want to derail the thread but I suggest you take much closer ownership of the EHCP process (if it turns out the school hasn't actually requested one, you can do so yourself as a parent - IPSEA have a template letter on their website you can use).

@PinkPandaas your son can’t cope with long days . He isn’t playing up for fun .
The way he behaves is his way of letting you know “he is not ok” “he is not coping “
Would you not be happier knowing he had a good day at school and then he was happy at home in the afternoon.
Education is important, his mental state comes first though.

'ADHD is a disability under the Equality Act.'

Ah, this is an interesting one - it was very clearly not the case even a few years ago. It seems that people now assume it is.

So are the other 30 kids in class.
This sounds a sensible option to me that balances the needs of everyone

I also think it’s a good idea.
This is possibly incredibly ignorant of me; but why is he swearing at teachers? You mention he has ADHD etc but I don’t understand why that means he thinks swearing is acceptable.
I can see your logic that maybe he has ‘learnt’ kicking off means he gets to come home. The thing he doesn’t know yet is that coming home permanently means exclusion and that is really serious and has prolonged consequences for him. What is is about school that he does not like / finds the hardest? I wondered at his age now, he says he ‘doesn’t need a babysitter’ - well can you say ‘if you can do mornings for the next 2 weeks with no poor behaviour / swearing; we will give you more time without the ‘babysitter’”. Is he capable of that sort of thinking? He’s able to understand that he’s been singled out as different- ok if he doesn’t want that support then he needs to do things differently. Wishing the best of luck to you xx

One person having a disability does not mean that an entire class, and likely multiple entire classes, are unable to learn. Because keeping him there isn't going to make him learn more, it's just making the others learn less.

OP another thing to think about is that the 1 to 1 is likely to be warned not to be alone with him because he's shown aggression and defiance towards staff, so some of the suggestions that others in this thread have made won't work.

I'll be honest, as a teacher I have never seen a child display the behaviour you describe in year 7 make it to GCSEs. The behaviour usually escalates, becoming more extreme and disruptive, until a permanent exclusion is sought, usually in year 10 when they realize GCSEs are imminent and they can no longer allow him to take the year group down with him.

It would be better for your child for you to cooperate with the school and put all your might into seeking a special school placement for him. If you tell the school you're thinking about this they'll probably help you since they're likely getting complaints from other parents.

@JLou08a “child with significant needs” doesn’t always equate to a child who cannot or will not learn.
The school here are conveying their inability to meet his needs or maintain safe learning for the other pupils, alongside him.
There are multiple reasons for this, unidentified triggers &!strategies, the need for medication or change of dose, other SEMH issues perhaps the OP hasn’t shared.
The solution is to call an emergency review, find an alternative setting where he can learn, not to slash his opportunities in half.
Mainstream schools are often not equipped, trained or experienced to do the necessary delving into what causes these behaviours, their priorities will always be focused around whole school performance targets, reducing hours is an easy route for them to take, but an unlawful one and painfully shortsighted for OP’s son.

If the funding & support is failing, there’s always a reason why. In this case, it sounds like a different setting is needed, there needs to be a plan for the interim that provides a full time education,for all involved.

I wish the OP the best of luck 🤞

Children with ADHD learn this too. They are capable of learning things.

My thought is medication. Does he get a meds top up at lunchtime and if not, why not?

Unfortunately schools don't get that children can actively work towards what they think is a punishment. My DS told me "if I kick my TA I will get to go to pupil support and finish my colouring".

It is also possible however that the classrooms are just too noisy and busy for him. If he can manage the morning, why can't they find him a quiet space to do his afternoon work?

I should get a commission for this, but please look at ADHD Dude. His advice and plans saved us as a family and DS relationship with school (also sorting out his meds helped!).

An excellent, balanced post , full of common sense and understanding x

And if a school cannot cope with a child’s behaviour? Should they just suck it up? Should the children just get on with it?
How much verbal abuse should the staff take before they start calling in sick?

Pipe down ? Mainstream isn’t the right environment for a child who can’t cope with other children. Teachers can refuse to teach a child who swears at them and is possibly violent. Do you think they should just suck it up?
Your child deserves an education in a setting suitable for his neurological condition. He does not deserve an education at the expense of countless other children . Teachers deserve to work in an environment where they feel safe.

He’s entitled to a full time education.

I say this gently (I have a child with high needs) I would be punishing behaviour that he is displaying at school very harshly. If my child were refusing lessons and swearing at teachers then they would be allowed zero Access to all electronic devices, zero access to sweets, zero playing out and for for prolonged amounts of time. I do not care how that sounds or if people don’t like it. I would stamp some of this out in the short term because this is going to go from bad to worse and you know it. I know all about deregulation and inability to control themselves. I also know how let down our children are, they don’t belong where they are and they need help, all of which you should still advocate for. However, I absolutely would be able to stop my child from displaying some of these behaviours with the right punishments at home and I believe from what you’ve said about your son’s understanding that you could too. Get tough for your sake and his.

That (thank goodness) is not how dealing with a child with a disability works. Your ablist horrible nonsense doesn’t help anyone. Thankfully disabilities are protected rather than thrown in under “greatest good for greatest number.” Seriously cop on.

He has a disability. They don’t. So how about pipe down a bit yeah?

Was your son reassessed last year? It sounds as if it is necessary. If not, I would suggest asking for a full reassessment now, and/or an early annual review.