Dog crates are cruel

That's not my experience. Every dog I knew growing up had access to the garage, or a cosy, weather-proof kennel, if they were left alone for long periods during the day. No one was throwing their dog out into the cold and rain!

It just didn't seem like house destruction was an issue past puppyhood.

I suppose that yes, I do recall puppies often being kept in the kitchen and laundry while young, when unsupervised, as there was nothing in there they could destroy! Or with the use of a wooden clothes-airer as a 'baby gate', kept in the dining room, in the case of one friend's puppy. But that still seems kinder than a crate. There's room to run around, a cosy nest to retreat to, toys and the space to play with them - it just seems less restrictive than shutting them in a small cage. Plus it's only temporary, while they're little.

I didn't know anyone who kept their dogs outside 24/7 unless they were working dogs, but I was probably just lucky in not knowing any cruel owners, as they did exist back then.

Crates are fine.

Neglecting a dog in a crate, or a field or a penthouse in London, is all very bad.

Nor me. Apart from on mumsnet when no one leaves them for a second.

Same here. My grandparents had a few litters of puppies, and they were kept in the bathroom. It was amusing using the loo, and having a load of puppies trying to climb up your legs.
I have never known anyone to let a puppy have free reign of the house until they were past the chewing stage and were fully house trained.

Dogs were also left outside in the garden with an outdoor kennel all day in all weathers for just this reason, so they didn't wreck houses - which now is deemed as not only cruel but also very antisocial to your neighbours when they inevitably barked and/or escaped.

So if the option is crate for an hour or two with a treat and access to clean water and dry warm bed, or being thrown into the rain outside, I know which one my dog would prefer!

My parents always had dogs and so did my grandparents.

They were confined in other ways. Baby gates, in utility rooms, outbuildings.

Not ours, but many dogs from puppies were tethered outside.

And makeshift crates of course.

My mum used to train all of our dogs just like I do. She had an area of the kitchen with an old cot with the legs cut off when the dogs were puppies. Did the same routine with feeding/sleep/toilet until they had learned and had stopped chewing.

My grandparents used to keep their young dogs confined to the utility.

I do wonder how people managed before 'crating' became a thing?

I had loads of friends and family with dogs growing up, including our own dogs, and no one had ongoing issues with dogs destroying the house that I know of, beyond some expected wear and tear. Oh, except for the family friends with the Pomeranians they didn't bother training, who weed all over the carpet

What's different now, I wonder?

Lol, that argument is genuinely so stupid. Yes, if the crate door is closed, the dog has to stay in it. Congratulations on realizing how doors work. That does not remotely prove the crate is cruel. The fact that properly crate-trained dogs will voluntarily go sleep in the exact same crate when the door is open is evidence that they do not inherently experience the space as some horrifying little prison.

And the “would YOU like to be locked in one?” comparison is toddler-level reasoning. I’m not a dog. I also wouldn’t enjoy eating kibble off the floor, wearing a collar, being transported in a dog crate, or having someone else decide when I go outside to pee. Dogs are not tiny furry humans, and responsible confinement is a completely normal part of dog ownership, training, travel, veterinary care, conformation, sports, and breeding.

The actual issue is duration, training, and welfare. Leaving a dog crated all day every day with no exercise or interaction can absolutely be cruel. Crating a properly trained dog for a reasonable period because it cannot safely be loose, needs to settle, is traveling, or there are guests over is not. “The door closes, therefore cruelty” is such a spectacularly unserious standard that by that logic every kennel, veterinary cage, grooming enclosure, and secured car crate is abuse too.

You're completely right.

However I don't think the OP wants to hear anything except all puppies/dogs must be with the their owners all day everyday, oh and also they should be watched all night. And if you can't do that (cos, you know, life and all that) you shouldn't have a dog. And you should expect your home to be destroyed, 'cos that's the deal when getting a dog. Or something...

I mean, I'm sure that will not cause any separation anxiety in the dog.

I expect they also simultaneously believe that dogs should not be in pubs or cafes etc as well, and should be left at home because the world doesn't revolve around your dog.

I have answered, twice.

So what would your solution be for a relentless chewer? Yes, training. But at some point during that training, you have to eat, sleep, shower, go shopping. Or heaven forbid, work.

So what do you do with a 12 week old puppy, who you are redirecting everytime it chews, following training advice, do it it all to the letter when you can’t have eyes on them? Shut them in a room with no furniture, skirting boards or wires?

Puppies don’t chew due to lack of training, they chew like babies chew, because they have teeth coming through. Most puppies aren’t districtive chewers who will always do that - it’s just while they are teething.

Thry would feel a lot more secure in a quiet, dark crate that resembles a den than behind a door which they would probably get distressed and chew. They would soil that probably when they got distressed and be uncomfortable. Dogs do not soil crates where they sleep (unless left for hours on end, which obviously, is wrong).

You cannot watch a puppy 24 hours a day.

Also, when crate training a puppy you have a routine! For feeding, water, play, toileting, sleeping. I don’t think you know what crate training is or is used for.

Some people do it, some don’t. I didn’t with my four previous goldens - they were in a very small utility room with a baby gate, but same same. We had a routine for the training. There were not given the run of the house as puppies.

We've never crated any of our dogs and have no plans to start.

Train them well, have a consistent routine, and make sure they have their own basket to go to - no need for a crate.

I would've thought so! I mean, I know now as an adult that leaving the dogs at home during school hours for three days during the term certainly wasn't ideal (although I'm not sure getting a walk from a dog-walker in the middle of the day as people do nowadays is much better, if they have a garden to run around in), but I feel like locking them in a cage is potentially much more frustrating to a dog.

We never had issues with destructive dogs past puppyhood, and they tended to sleep in one of our bedrooms on the floor by the bed and periodically patrol the house (and sometimes squeeze out the cat door!), rather than snooze in one spot all night.

Adult dogs aren't babies, and the thought of locking them up in a cage all night seems very restrictive for an adult animal. I imagine some don't really care and are happy to sleep all night, but in that case the cage wouldn't need to be shut, would it?

I have not seen anyone on here say they lock their dog up for hours on end and ignore them. Not one.
Bed times do not count.
Again, why do people put babies/toddlers in cots?

As someone who grew up with much loved pet dogs, it's odd to me that previous generations had family dogs and never used or needed cages to train them, but now cages are considered essential by many.

My mum worked part-time, so three days a week we used to leave the dogs out in the dog-proof garden with their toys and their cosy kennel while we were at school, with a short walk in the morning and a long one in the afternoon, and they were perfectly happy running about til we got home - the neighbours would've told us if they weren't!

But I think now that'd be considered cruel (because they were at home alone all day, never mind that they had a big garden to run around in) while locking them in a small cage for hours is considered responsible.

Because (as I said) we have a dog door to the (fenced in and safe) back garden and she is a dog that would chase a squirrel or cat and bark and wake us and our neighbours up! She goes to bed when we do and again( as I said) she stays in her bed with the door not latched but if we left it unlatched often she might choose to be in the garden overnight which could be antisocial for everyone
additionally - when she had surgery our vet said they were so glad she was used to a crate as they observed her for a few days and dogs that aren’t used to a crate get distressed even more 🤷‍♀️

My girl is due to be spayed soon, the vet asked me if she was crate trained.

He was relieved when I said yes, and said she would be far less distressed on the day.

Ours was crate trained as a puppy. He's five now and yesterday had to be admitted to the vets with severe pancreatitis. Being comfortable with being in a cage was a god send.

My dog was about 18 months old when she broke her leg and needed an operation. The vet was very strict about how she had to rest and not put weight on her leg and said we needed a crate. My dog was already crate trained and we already had one so that was easy. Dogs don't get the memo about having to keep still or not put weight on a post-op limb though, especially a bouncy young dog.

Dog threads always go the same way on here. People who don't have dogs, or little experience of them thinking they know better than people who do.

Why do people "lock" small children in a cot overnight?

So how could we have cared for our dog after her three knee surgeries, @Happyjoe? The vet told us she wasn’t even allowed to walk round the house without us supporting her hips with a belly band, and if she had run, jumped or slipped, she would have done significant damage to her knee joints.

And obviously, @Poppycorn123, the cage should be the right size for a dog to stand up, stretch and turn around - dh could sit in the cage we used for our dog.

It seems as if the anti-cage brigade will never accept that a dog owner who has used a cage has done so with care, and that they know their dog well enough (better than someone who has never met them), and know that the dog is happy. And they don’t want to accept that there are some circumstances where it is vital for a dog to be in a cage temporarily - following an injury or surgery for example.