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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think our public transport system needs a complete overhaul?

189 replies

creatorofthecoastguard · 02/09/2026 12:37

I’m currently on holiday in southern Europe, and on an intercity train.

So far I’ve encountered trams that are a flat rate of €1.70 a journey, buses that are €1.50 a journey, trains that are actually affordable (£9 for a 45 minute journey across the border!), it’s all been amazing. Every train has been clean, spacious, yes busy in places but only when it’s to be expected (going to popular destinations). The intercity train I’m on now isn’t oversold, isn’t rammed full of people, there’s enough luggage space.

It’s really eye opening to how poor our public transport actually is. Expensive, poorly maintained, and poor conditions.

AIBU to think it needs an overhaul, and soon? I know it wouldn’t be cheap, and that a lot of our issues stem from post-WW2 when we didn’t upgrade our risks compared to most of Europe, but it needs doing!

OP posts:
MeetMeOnTheCorner · 04/09/2026 00:03

@BlueFahrenheit Yes my dd has to take rush hour trains and cannot get cheaper deals as she has to travel for work and sometimes the work is cancelled. However we went from London to Edinburgh recently for £60 return. If wholly depends on whether you roll up in the day for a peak time train or go at another time. If it’s nothing to do with work and costs are not reclaimable, go at another time.

DdraigGoch · 03/09/2026 23:59

Benvenuto · 03/09/2026 22:34

Privatisation has created all sorts of problems though eg fares are confusing & aren’t integrated between different services, bus & rail compete & aren’t integrated, some areas have an over supply of services & some an undersupply. We’ve tried letting the market run public transport & it has failed.

The places with the best public transport - London, Manchester, Nottingham - have some sort of public control over routes so services go where people need them. Those cities also have expanded rail successfully.

HS2 has been problematic, but we are building rail very successfully as projects such as the Elizabeth Line show. We could build more.

I remember people whinging about Crossrail, when that was late and over budget. Saying that it would be a white elephant.

They shut up very quickly when it opened and revolutionised east-west transport across London.

ifonlytheydlisten · 03/09/2026 23:59

@BlueFahrenheit agree. Going to london for a 9am mtg is eye watering. Mid day is ok!

DdraigGoch · 03/09/2026 23:58

Badbadbunny · 02/09/2026 16:13

Which "stupid voters" wanted HS2? I can't remember a referendum nor any political manifesto promises about it in a general election. It was politicians who wanted it, I don't know anyone who thought it was a good idea - in fact most people I know in the railway industry knew it was a dead duck. Lots of people actively campaigned against it as it would make some journeys longer and less convenient (i.e. from the North who currently have fast express trains to London which would be cancelled and they'd have to get a slower connecting train to one of the few stations where HS2 trains stopped).

You are very badly informed. Who is getting a "longer and less convenient" journey because of HS2?

Direct HS2 services were planned from London to Birmingham, Carlisle, Chesterfield, Crewe, Darlington, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Liverpool, Macclesfield, Manchester, Newcastle, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Leeds, Preston, Runcorn, Sheffield, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Warrington Wigan, and York. So who is losing their direct London trains? Who is going to need to change?

The West Coast Main Line is full. It's the busiest mixed-traffic railway in Europe. Avanti already runs eleven coach Pendolinos and there's no scope on the existing infrastructure to lengthen them further. By building a new line, we can run up to 18 trains per hour, at up to 16 coaches long each. And you won't be delayed by a late-running freight train, because they'll be on the old route. Meanwhile there will be extra capacity on the old route into Euston, Man Picc and Birmingham New Street which means more scope to run local trains. The East Coast Mainline doesn't have much spare capacity either, and the Midland Main Line is not far behind it.

Unless we increase capacity, overcrowding will continue, and there will be surge pricing with it.

BlueFahrenheit · 03/09/2026 23:51

MeetMeOnTheCorner · 02/09/2026 13:18

Why should tax payers subsidise your journey though? I find trains pretty good on the whole and only rush hour trains are expensive. There are a few franchises that are not great but I’ve found clean trains, mostly on time and not unreasonably priced. We cannot keep asking the government for more money!

Pardon?

A return trip to Manchester can cost upwards of £250+

ifonlytheydlisten · 03/09/2026 23:43

I appreciate I’m lucky that im Manchester and can also zip to london in 2.5 hours easily. But it was also a conscious choice to live where I do and we pay in house prices. Problem is that in reality people would generally rather drive in most places so public transport isn’t viable.
make it free then see.. I still remember the Manchester commonwealth games where literally for that month everyone used it as free

seahorsessky · 03/09/2026 23:41

No, car driving is essential for a lot of people with disabilities. With the way people behave, it's not safe/secure for them to use bus/train. In other countries, people seem to behave better on them (maybe not everywhere, but in those places, they'd have to drive too).

RikthePoet · 03/09/2026 23:40

Benvenuto · 03/09/2026 22:34

Privatisation has created all sorts of problems though eg fares are confusing & aren’t integrated between different services, bus & rail compete & aren’t integrated, some areas have an over supply of services & some an undersupply. We’ve tried letting the market run public transport & it has failed.

The places with the best public transport - London, Manchester, Nottingham - have some sort of public control over routes so services go where people need them. Those cities also have expanded rail successfully.

HS2 has been problematic, but we are building rail very successfully as projects such as the Elizabeth Line show. We could build more.

Hah! Nottingham has great city-owned buses, a too-small-to-be-effective tram "network" but wretched slow diesel trains to London and really poor connections and frequencies to Birmingham and anywhere in the north. The East Midlands region has consistently had the lowest public investment in transport in England. HS2 was supposed to solve most of that, as well as electrification of the rail line to London. Both scrapped by successive governments.

DdraigGoch · 03/09/2026 23:35

creatorofthecoastguard · 02/09/2026 13:21

With trains the answer is a complete relaying of the tracks. I don’t know the logistics of it and I won’t pretend it would be easy, but the gist of it is that after WW2 much of Europe upgraded their networks to carry bigger trains. It’s why we’re stuck with the crappy little ones we have, while most countries in Europe can run the double decker trains.

Europe's trains were always bigger than ours. Even before they had the benefit of being bombed to smithereens by the Americans and getting to start from a blank canvas. Ripping up and starting again in the UK would be insanely costly.

crackofdoom · 03/09/2026 23:34

FalconHonour33 · 02/09/2026 13:12

I agree with the idea of an overhaul - more East-West trains, please - but having lived in both Germany and the NL, I can assure you that delays/cancellations are just as prolific there. I don't know where this myth of German efficiency comes from!!

Yes, and mid distance trains in France are often as expensive as their British equivalents.

RikthePoet · 03/09/2026 23:33

LlynTegid · 02/09/2026 14:44

We have not invested enough in railways since the mid 1950s. The corrupt decisions of the Beeching Report was the first of many that has led to where we are now with rail. There is a lot that could be done, Scotland has shown some success and there are a few other examples.

HS2 was a bad decision, should have been up the east coast then Leeds to Manchester, which would have achieved far more and cost a lot less I expect.

Why would you go up the east coast which already has a fast electric line, when the capacity issues are between London, Birmingham and Manchester?

DdraigGoch · 03/09/2026 23:33

MeetMeOnTheCorner · 02/09/2026 13:18

Why should tax payers subsidise your journey though? I find trains pretty good on the whole and only rush hour trains are expensive. There are a few franchises that are not great but I’ve found clean trains, mostly on time and not unreasonably priced. We cannot keep asking the government for more money!

Do you drive a car?

If so, taxpayers are subsidising you. The externalised costs of road transport are quite considerable.

Besides, every person on a train is an entire car off of the roads. That makes life better for motorists too.

crackofdoom · 03/09/2026 23:32

MeetMeOnTheCorner · 02/09/2026 13:18

Why should tax payers subsidise your journey though? I find trains pretty good on the whole and only rush hour trains are expensive. There are a few franchises that are not great but I’ve found clean trains, mostly on time and not unreasonably priced. We cannot keep asking the government for more money!

Dunno, but by that logic why should taxpayers subsidise roads and airports either? 🤷‍♀️

MeetMeOnTheCorner · 03/09/2026 23:32

@likelysuspect Train cancellations are the norm in Italy.

We have poor services in some areas and most people know Bradford is poor. Doesn’t the mayor keep banging on about it? It’s a shame no one thought about this and went headlong into HS2. Ultimately that’s robbed many lines of investment but the north collectivity thought it was great and fully suooorted it. No one talked about what might actually be more important in the north. The whole saga has been astounding!

DdraigGoch · 03/09/2026 23:31

I've travelled a lot around Europe. In no particular order:

Deutsche Bahn [Germany] (as you hinted) is considered a national embarassment to the Germans, and its neighbours are weary of its poor punctuality. €63 for unlimited monthly travel on regional transport is a nice perk though, even if the intercity service is falling apart.

SNCF [France] is often highly rated by tourists for the performance of its TGVs. However the insistence on booking a specific train rather than just being able to turn up and go makes TGVs a poor choice compared to travel in Switzerland, or using a flexible ticket in the UK. In the regions its a bit more variable. Taking tourists between Nice and Monaco (the sort of line that OP appears to be using) is big business, so they put on a mixture of four and eight car trains (the four car ones really struggle with crowding). Regional trains out of cities like Lyon and Strasbourg however use ancient equipment, older than virtually anything used in the UK (the only real exceptions being the Inter7City sets in Scotland). Live down a rural branch line? In the UK, you probably have a few trains per day. In France there might be a morning commuter train to town and one back in the evening, no more.

NS [Netherlands] provides a pretty decent, regular service to most of the country. Contactless payments nationwide, integration between transport modes, walkable and bikeable infrastructure. Not much to complain about.

SNCB [Belgium] a reasonably decent service, if not quite as good as the Netherlands. They really need to get a grip on their graffiti problem though.

CfL [Luxemburg] has free transport nationwide. It's a perk of being a tax haven. Our trains would be swamped if we tried that. Not a bad network of trains and buses connecting what is a fairly rural country.

SBB/CFF/FFS [Switzerland] is the gold standard. Not the fastest (it's not the easiest terrain to work with), but regular interval services nationwide, connections that work, exemplary punctuality, impressive infrastructure investment, and for 3995F you can buy a GA card, giving you a year's unlimited travel on all modes of public transport.

Trenitalia [Italy] has a decent high speed network if you're going between major cities in the north. Anything south of Naples will be dreadfully slow.

CFR [Romania] uses ancient equipment, routes are very slow.

BDZ [Bulgaria] like Romania, but worse.

MAV [Hungary] good in patches.

Malta no longer has trains or trams. The buses meanwhile are dreadfully crowded and get caught in the dire congestion. Cycling infrastructure is nonexistent and the pedestrian path sometimes just narrows to nothing and you have to walk in the street. You'd think that a small island microstate would be one of the best, wouldn't you? But no...

PKP [Poland] has a reasonable network and prices are cheap. Not the most modern in many places, but still comfortable.

OBB [Austria] is somewhere between Switzerland and Germany. It's reliable, but coverage could be better, especially in rural areas.

Istanbul - I can't judge the rest of Turkish railways as the only external train was the sleeper from Sofia (comfortable, cheap, you have to get up in the small hours for customs checks). In Istanbul itself, the metro and trams are modern, but i've never seen overcrowding like it.

Elron [Estonia] very modern trains and trams around Tallinn. The service towards the Latvian border is very slow, under the USSR the lines to Moscow were the important ones. It's reasonably priced though, like €35 for a single from Tallinn to Riga. An EU project is ongoing to build a new line.

LDZ [Latvia] beginning to modernise, but still dreadfully slow

LTG [Lithuania] had quite old equipment when I visited, but I think those have been replaced since. Again, slow. When going to Poland you have to change trains because the Soviets built their track to a different gauge. Earthworks for Rail Baltica are making good progress.

IE [Ireland] do at least put on long enough trains for the demand. Frequencies are a bit lacking, especially towards the west. Outside of the DART, everything is diesel-powered and not necessarily that modern. If you want to go between any two places, you'll probably have to go via Dublin as most cross-country lines got closed.

NIR [Northern Ireland] modern, plenty of capacity. I'd like to see better frequencies though, especially towards Derry/Londonderry.

So what about the UK? We do have significant problems with crowding. On London commuter flows, that's because our economy is heavily geared towards London and it's got to the stage that we can't really add much more capacity. Put some investment into cities with room like Manchester and Leeds, and businesses will relocate and spread the load. Might do something about the insanse house prices in the South East too. Unfortunately previous governments have neglected the need to improve the connectivity of those northern cities, otherwise we'd have had HS2 years ago. And yes, we need it. Other routes like Crosscountry are easier to solve - the government could order longer trains tomorrow if it wanted to, and the infrastructure work required would be minimal. An effect of the lack of capacity on our network and the refusal to invest is that the answer to overcrowding has long been to hike fares to price people off.

On the other hand, we provide a far better service on rural routes than you'd get in most other countries. With the Pacers gone, the average age of our trains is reasonably low. Punctuality-wise, even Avanti isn't any worse than Deutsche Bahn.

ifonlytheydlisten · 03/09/2026 23:27

I’m Manchester. Our Bee network is fab. Trains trams buses .. unless you are in the stix. Very easy to live without a car day to day. Not ever route is every few mins but a lot of key ones are.

MorrisseysMisery · 03/09/2026 23:14

Don't get me started.
I had to attend an important medical appointment yesterday in Manchester. I live on the south side of Bradford. I can't drive currently due to a recent epileptic seizure so had to take public transport which consisted of...
2x buses
2x trains
2x trams
And the luxury of an Uber for the final leg of my journey as I'd bloody well had quite enough.
Buses are filthy, trains were overcrowded and full of litter and selfish people using whole tables on their own like a miniature hot-desks
Trams actually good, easy to pay on and off, clean, punctual and well ordered.
I long for the relative luxury of my ancient Honda Jazz

likelysuspect · 03/09/2026 22:45

Yes we really need full public transport, vast swathes of the country are not touched by public transport and trains and buses are hugely expensive, dangerous and feel unsafe quite a lot, no toilets, no shelters at bus stops, no seats.

But, travelling around Spain, Italy and France, there are pockets of fantastic routes and the prices are much much cheaper, but there are also huge areas where you really cant get around without a car, buying tickets is sometimes clumsy and clunky, different operators not doing the same processes as each other, ticket offices nowhere near the actual stations or stops.

Benvenuto · 03/09/2026 22:34

Putneydad7 · 03/09/2026 22:22

Before everyone thinks that nationalisation is the key, remember that productivity in the public sector is way lower than the private sector. So the instant a train company becomes nationalised it becomes more expensive to produce the same level of service.
I worked for years in investment banks where they would typically cull the worst 5-10% of workers every year. Can you imagine that in the public sector where no-one has ever been fired for poor performance ever!!!
it costs so much to build new track in the UK, nimbys, conservationists, the price of land,etc. so no-one really bothers any more

Privatisation has created all sorts of problems though eg fares are confusing & aren’t integrated between different services, bus & rail compete & aren’t integrated, some areas have an over supply of services & some an undersupply. We’ve tried letting the market run public transport & it has failed.

The places with the best public transport - London, Manchester, Nottingham - have some sort of public control over routes so services go where people need them. Those cities also have expanded rail successfully.

HS2 has been problematic, but we are building rail very successfully as projects such as the Elizabeth Line show. We could build more.

Putneydad7 · 03/09/2026 22:22

Before everyone thinks that nationalisation is the key, remember that productivity in the public sector is way lower than the private sector. So the instant a train company becomes nationalised it becomes more expensive to produce the same level of service.
I worked for years in investment banks where they would typically cull the worst 5-10% of workers every year. Can you imagine that in the public sector where no-one has ever been fired for poor performance ever!!!
it costs so much to build new track in the UK, nimbys, conservationists, the price of land,etc. so no-one really bothers any more

Badbadbunny · 02/09/2026 16:16

Sartre · 02/09/2026 15:21

Northern trains need to be longer, it’s crazy how packed the two carriage ones get in rush hour.

Unfortunately a lot of the stations were shortened back in the 70s so that's not easy to do, plus length of sidings is also a limiting factor. Not to mention the sheer cost of an extra carriage - you're talking millions per carriage. But yes, you're quite right, 2 or 3 coach trains in Northern-land are utterly unsuitable for the sheer volume of passengers expected to be shoe-horned into them, especially for the longer rural routes where you can crammed into a sardine-special for 1-2 hours with no facilities.

Badbadbunny · 02/09/2026 16:13

MeetMeOnTheCorner · 02/09/2026 14:41

@CatzaYes, I know there is government money but it’s enough and guess what, we are paying for HS2. The stupid voters wanted it so other services are not improved. The North wanted easy access to London and look how well that went.

I do not believe we need to spend more on this. My DD travels all over the country at peak times. Yes, it costs but she’s got court deadlines and gets there! Plus striking is the bigger issue.

Of course season tickets cost more - peak time travel. If you all wanted more trains you should have lobbied for no HS2 and improvements to the existing network but no one did. It’s just another addition to the long list of things we want improved but in many cases, aren’t that bad. It’s not obligatory to live where the rail service is not the best. Most of us take a view in that before buying. Services to Cornwall have always been crap but it’s not obligatory to live there!

Which "stupid voters" wanted HS2? I can't remember a referendum nor any political manifesto promises about it in a general election. It was politicians who wanted it, I don't know anyone who thought it was a good idea - in fact most people I know in the railway industry knew it was a dead duck. Lots of people actively campaigned against it as it would make some journeys longer and less convenient (i.e. from the North who currently have fast express trains to London which would be cancelled and they'd have to get a slower connecting train to one of the few stations where HS2 trains stopped).

Traitorsclaudia · 02/09/2026 16:12

The DC wanted to go on the train to our nearest big town which is a 20 minute journey, it was £14 for three of us. We usually drive (25 minutes) and it's £4 to park all day. Bus would have been £4 (with the summer kids discount) but there's only a bus every half hour and it takes nearly an hour to get there. Going on public transport is the day trip instead of how you get on the day trip! It's much more reasonable and easy to use across all the parts of Europe we've visited.

Newusername2026 · 02/09/2026 16:07

MeetMeOnTheCorner · 02/09/2026 14:41

@CatzaYes, I know there is government money but it’s enough and guess what, we are paying for HS2. The stupid voters wanted it so other services are not improved. The North wanted easy access to London and look how well that went.

I do not believe we need to spend more on this. My DD travels all over the country at peak times. Yes, it costs but she’s got court deadlines and gets there! Plus striking is the bigger issue.

Of course season tickets cost more - peak time travel. If you all wanted more trains you should have lobbied for no HS2 and improvements to the existing network but no one did. It’s just another addition to the long list of things we want improved but in many cases, aren’t that bad. It’s not obligatory to live where the rail service is not the best. Most of us take a view in that before buying. Services to Cornwall have always been crap but it’s not obligatory to live there!

I don't know anyone who really wanted HS2. My priorities would be to make existing services reliable, affordable, clean and safe. Increase east-west train services and bus routes in underserved areas. I travel mostly in London so have more frequent services and alternatives. Nonetheless every journey I hear about an escalator or lift out of order, unexpected signal failure, over running engineering work etc etc. And some stations and trains look as if they have not been properly cleaned for years. I think a functioning public transport system available to all is as vital a need for society as health, education and utilities.

Mydogisagentleman · 02/09/2026 15:56

Definitely need improvement.
I travelled to Spain yesterday. I bought my £48 return ticket on Friday.
When I checked the train times, not a single train was running all day.
I had to book car parking at the airport, £101.40 and drive for 2 hours. I am not happy

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